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Article: "America Could Have Been One Giant Sweden "

Kilo_302

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Interesting article, taking the long view of history. Really puts the triumph of corporate power over state power and civil society in perspective. The place we are collectively going is not good.

http://www.alternet.org/america-could-have-been-one-giant-sweden-instead-it-looks-lot-soviet-union

[/These days, it’s usually just right-wing nuts who sound like old-fashioned convergence theorists. They’re the ones who label President Obama a secret agent of European socialism and believe that his health care plan will pollute the country’s precious bodily fluids, much as Dr. Strangelove’s General Jack D. Ripper worried about fluoridation. Despite the ornate fantasies of such figures, the United States has clearly moved in the opposite direction. Today’s Democrats are considerably more conservative economically than the Republicans of the 1970s and the Republicans have effectively purged all moderates from their ranks in their surge rightward.

Instead of converging toward Scandinavian socialism, the U.S. has been slouching toward illiberalism for some time now. The Tea Party bemoans the “nanny” and “gun-control” state, but misses the deeply sinister ways in which that state has been captured by the forces of illiberality. The United States has expanded its archipelago of incarceration, our homegrown gulag, so dramatically that we have more people in prison -- in total and by percentage of population -- than any developed country on Earth. Our political system has been taken over by a club of the rich -- our own nomenklatura -- with corruption so embedded that no one dares call it by that name and critics instead speak of the “revolving door” and “voter suppression” and the “influence of money in politics.” The deterioration of public infrastructure has, as in the Soviet Union in the 1970s, turned the country into an embarrassment of falling bridges, exploding gas lines, bursting pipelines, backward railroads, unsecured power plants, and potential ecological catastrophes.
quote]
 
The problem with all these statements is that the US is really 51 countries struggling to travel the same general direction. While some of the Federal issues remain consistent across the board, most of the issues are generally within the powers of the States which guard them jealously. 
 
The United States has expanded its archipelago of incarceration, our homegrown gulag, so dramatically that we have more people in prison -- in total and by percentage of population -- than any developed country on Earth.

Yup......gotta hate a place where criminals actually get caught and punished instead of actually running the country.
If some folks only had a clue..........
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
The United States has expanded its archipelago of incarceration, our homegrown gulag, so dramatically that we have more people in prison -- in total and by percentage of population -- than any developed country on Earth.

Yup......gotta hate a place where criminals actually get caught and punished instead of actually running the country.
If some folks only had a clue..........

Well seeing as the incarceration rate in the US is the highest in the world, we can infer a few things. Americans are more prone to crime than other nationalities, or the justice system isn't effective when it comes to rates of recidivism. OR, the US justice system jails people for minor offenses, such as possession, traffic offenses etc (African-Americans are disproportionately represented here). Any way you slice it, this is clearly a systemic problem and unique to the US. So yeah, GOTTA hate that place. It's falling apart.
 
I love Sweden and Swedes.

But.

There is an argument to be made that Sweden is an Illiberal State.  There is a strong Oligarchy in Sweden based around a small group of families that share the directorships of Sweden's companies.  This situation gave rise to a string of conspiracy theories on the death of Olaf Palme who was challenging the status quo.

Sweden can be seen as a kindler, gentler corporatist state where the oligarchs have fully understood the benefits of enlightened benevolence.
 
Maybe it's just my nasty left-wing "progressiveness" showing, but is there some kind of correlation between how loudly people yell about "state control" and "nanny state" and "freedom", and their seemingly unquestioning support for ever more laws about taking away peoples' freedom and rights, based on less and less evidence? How do you balance those two things?

Oh, sorry, I forgot...it won't be "them" that gets scooped up, will it. Of course not.

The problem with saying "yes, but I haven't done anything wrong, so I have nothing to hide", is that you don't get to decide what "wrong" is. The government does. That might work for you today, but governments and agendas change: the " party base" of today may be the "outliers" of tomorrow. But governments are always reluctant to shed powers.

So, let's have laws, but let's have bloody good safeguards too: "sunset" provisions, elected oversight, a boisterous, aggressive Opposition, a free media, and a truly independent judiciary.
 
The rate of incarceration in the States is directly proportional to the breakdown in family values and the two parent family system.
 
YZT580 said:
The rate of incarceration in the States is directly proportional to the breakdown in family values and the two parent family system.

I don't know about that. While the US has a high rate of birth outside marriage (41%), western countries that have even higher rates of birth outside marriage, like the UK, Sweden and France have low rates of incarceration. Actually, western countries that still do the birth in marriage thing to a greater degree than the US (like Canada, Australia, and Italy) also have low rates of incarceration -- roughly comparable to that of the UK, Sweden and France.

The rate of incarceration in the US is unique among nations -- nobody locks people up like the United States does. It's the ultimate American exceptionalism. It is arguable that the number one cause that leads to incarceration is being an American.

http://worldfamilymap.org/2014/e-ppendix/figure5

http://www.prisonstudies.org/research-publications?shs_term_node_tid_depth=27
 
But their crime rate is falling from a remarkable high rate. Let see how some of these countries handle a proportional influx of 11 million illegal immigrants as well.
 
Kilo_302 said:
traffic offenses

Yea, well when you have someone get killed from an asshole that should have stayed in jail maybe you'll shut your gob a little.....or go to a place where traffic rules don't matter and getting killed/injured is just part of expectations.
 
Colin P said:
But their crime rate is falling from a remarkable high rate. Let see how some of these countries handle a proportional influx of 11 million illegal immigrants as well.

If you're suggesting that the high rate of incarceration in the US is due to illegal immigration, there is zero data to back that up. The reasons are quite easy to track. I would argue the rise of the "moral majority" in the US and the steeper minimum sentences for minor crimes like drug possession are to blame. But why let data get in the way?

The root of this problem is what is categorized these days as "conservative thinking. Punishment is better than rehabilitation, corporate rights (private prisons) are more important than individual rights and civil society, damn the evidence (Long Form Census anyone?), these polices FEEL good. We should probably have a thread on this site entitled "The problem with Conservative thinking", because it's that approach that has put us on the road to corporate despotism and an illiberal government acting on it's behalf.

[urlhttp://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/10/incarceration.aspx][/url]

For decades, the United States had a relatively stable prison population. That changed in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Some factors included a rise in crime from the 1960s to 1980s; rising concerns over crack cocaine and other drugs, resulting in huge increases in drug penalties; a move to mandatory minimum sentences; and the implementation of other tough-on-crime policies, such as "three-strikes" laws and policies to ensure prisoners served at least 85 percent of their sentences. These harsher sentencing laws coupled with the dramatic increase in drug penalties added up to a state and federal prison population of 1.5 million, up from 200,000 in 1973. And that's not including nearly 750,000 Americans in jails on a daily basis (as well as an annual jail population of close to 13 million, says Tangney).

This growth is "historically unprecedented" in the United States and "internationally unique," the report concludes.

What's more, the movement toward broad, punitive crime control and prison policies wasn't based on any scientific rationale, says Haney, who studies the psychological effects of incarceration. "Rather, it was largely the product of a series of policy decisions made for largely political reasons," he says. "For whatever reason, legislators and other politicians have found it politically advantageous and expedient to continue to pursue a strategy of punitive crime control policies irrespective of the cost of that policy."

The US "tough on crime" approach has failed. So it's just the right time for Canada to hop on that train right? Because that's what our current government would have us think.
 
Ostrozac said:
I don't know about that. While the US has a high rate of birth outside marriage (41%), western countries that have even higher rates of birth outside marriage, like the UK, Sweden and France have low rates of incarceration. Actually, western countries that still do the birth in marriage thing to a greater degree than the US (like Canada, Australia, and Italy) also have low rates of incarceration -- roughly comparable to that of the UK, Sweden and France.

The rate of incarceration in the US is unique among nations -- nobody locks people up like the United States does. It's the ultimate American exceptionalism. It is arguable that the number one cause that leads to incarceration is being an American.

http://worldfamilymap.org/2014/e-ppendix/figure5

http://www.prisonstudies.org/research-publications?shs_term_node_tid_depth=27

I'm not sure that birth outside of marriage matters, rather that absentee fathers matters more. I think the difference between western Europe and America has more to do with lack of a quality male role model in America, where in Europe it's more a rejection of a religious obligation to have a church sanctioned joining.

Since the early 1980s we have seen the demise of the traditional male roll model in favour of the metrosexual who has no idea of which end of a spanner to use, let alone what a spanner looks like for example. I'm not going to descend into a "poor males" diatribe here, but if you watch just a little television, ask yourself what kind of father figure is being displayed.

Good, strong parenting that teaches children right from wrong, and provides a positive model for functioning in society contributes more to a good, productive adulthood than whether or not your parents tied the knot.

I'll leave you with this quote from the Daily Mail:

'Academic studies repeatedly show that children with involved fathers do far better at school, have a much lower chance of getting involved in crime and have better mental health. So shouldn't we be celebrating and encouraging what dads do, instead of mocking them?'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2340677/Why-does-TV-portray-dad-dimwit.html#ixzz3bMVwM25x
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Yea, well when you have someone get killed from an ******* that should have stayed in jail maybe you'll shut your gob a little.....or go to a place where traffic rules don't matter and getting killed/injured is just part of expectations.


Why am I not surprised that I have to explain I was referring to things like a busted tail light or not signaling?
ModlrMike said:
I'm not sure that birth outside of marriage matters, rather that absentee fathers matters more. I think the difference between western Europe and America has more to do with lack of a quality male role model in America, where in Europe it's more a rejection of a religious obligation to have a church sanctioned joining.

Since the early 1980s we have seen the demise of the traditional male roll model in favour of the metrosexual who has no idea of which end of a spanner to use, let alone what a spanner looks like for example. I'm not going to descend into a "poor males" diatribe here, but if you watch just a little television, ask yourself what kind of father figure is being displayed.

Good, strong parenting that teaches children right from wrong, and provides a positive model for functioning in society contributes more to a good, productive adulthood than whether or not your parents tied the knot.

I'll leave you with this quote from the Daily Mail:

'Academic studies repeatedly show that children with involved fathers do far better at school, have a much lower chance of getting involved in crime and have better mental health. So shouldn't we be celebrating and encouraging what dads do, instead of mocking them?'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2340677/Why-does-TV-portray-dad-dimwit.html#ixzz3bMVwM25x

These are exactly the emotional arguments in place of reason based arguments I am referring to in my above post. The APA article I posted above points to clear policy shifts and corresponding rises in incarceration rates. Again, this is easily tracked. Your notion of "metrosexuals" not being able to fix your car is irrelevant, even though it might fit your particular vision of the world.

The original article is unique in that it picks out the desirable traits in socialism (and dare I say it, communism) as well as the desirable traits of capitalism (economic productivity, innovation etc). Of course, to understand the overall thrust of the article, we have to accept our current system is broken, not because of the left, but because of the right.

We have swung hard to the right in terms of economic policy while simultaneously giving governments far more power solely in the military and security sphere.  Things are not getting better, they are getting worse. We have governments with unprecedented power acting on behalf of the corporate world. This is the reality the original article is describing. Getting out of this mess requires nuanced and reasoned policies, maybe even (shock horror) things like increasing revenue (taxes!), more government controls on the economy and a revitalized social safety net.
 
Kilo_302 said:
If you're suggesting that the high rate of incarceration in the US is due to illegal immigration,


Ummmmm?  Please pay attention to detail:

Colin P said:
But their crime rate is falling from a remarkable high rate. Let see how some of these countries handle a proportional influx of 11 million illegal immigrants as well.

Referring to the large numbers of migrants entering Europe from North Africa, which likely have radical Muslims in the mix.
 
Kilo_302 said:
Your notion of "metrosexuals" not being able to fix your car is irrelevant, even though it might fit your particular vision of the world.

It's completely relevant because it's not about fixing my car, it's about fixing your own. Being able to perform basic maintenance and repair serves to demonstrate to your children a sense of self reliance, and that they don't have to be dependent on other people for everything.

Kilo_302 said:
The original article is unique in that it picks out the desirable traits in socialism (and dare I say it, communism) as well as the desirable traits of capitalism (economic productivity, innovation etc). Of course, to understand the overall thrust of the article, we have to accept our current system is broken, not because of the left, but because of the right.

You're entitled to you opinion, but I contend that the removal of people's obligation to look after themselves first has been more damaging.
 
ModlrMike said:
It's completely relevant because it's not about fixing my car, it's about fixing your own. Being able to perform basic maintenance and repair serves to demonstrate to your children a sense of self reliance, and that they don't have to be dependent on other people for everything.

You're entitled to you opinion, but I contend that the removal of people's obligation to look after themselves first has been more damaging.

Haha it doesn't matter whose car we're talking about or what you contend. Look I'm all up for a debate, but the simple fact is nothing you've said is backed up by any data or verifiable study on crime rates. There's also the fact that they are FALLING.  It's the incarceration rates that are rising. :facepalm: So by your logic, falling crime rates can be attributed to kids NOT learning to take care of themselves.  I don't know about you, but putting people in jail for minor crimes is the epitome of the so-called "nanny state".
 
The high incarnation rate were a direct response to the very high crime rates and imposition of the "3 strikes your out rule"

One can argue that the possession laws for small quantities of pot are pointless and pot should be legalized. This would likely reduce the rate of minor crime incarceration, you would eventually see a minor increase in the more major crimes as the possession charges are often a tactic used to take career criminals off the street as there is not enough evidence to successfully charge them for the greater crimes.

The majority of of the population is in State/county prisons and only around 8% in "for profit prisons"

The issue of "fatherless households" is one that can be directly linked to the liberalization of the concept of family, the hippy era and has been particularly destructive to the Black community which previously had been fairly robust up to that point despite social pressures from outside.   
 
Colin P said:
The high incarnation incarceration rate were a direct response to the very high crime rates and imposition of the "3 strikes your out rule"

.....

FTFY  :)

Or did you really mean the increased birth rate?  Or perhaps there has been a spike in reincarnations of which I am unaware?
 
Colin P said:
The issue of "fatherless households" is one that can be directly linked to the liberalization of the concept of family, the hippy era and has been particularly destructive to the Black community which previously had been fairly robust up to that point despite social pressures from outside. 

The "fatherless household" issue is also influenced by the incarceration rate; there are large intedependencies between these issues.
 
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