Assault spurs call to outlaw beggars in T.O.

[aluc]

Assault spurs call to outlaw beggars
By ZEN RURYK, CITY HALL BUREAU CHIEF


http://www.torontosun.ca/News/TorontoAndGTA/2006/04/28/1554952-sun.html

The assault on a Toronto councillor in Nathan Phillips Square highlights the need to outlaw panhandling, Councillor Jane Pitfield says.

At city council yesterday, Pitfield called for Toronto lawyers to report on the prospect of introducing a bylaw banning panhandling. Council will deal with her request at a later date.

Police charged a man with two counts of assault after Councillor Michael Thompson was accosted Tuesday night by a beggar who asked him for money.

Pitfield, who's running for mayor in November, said that aggressive panhandlers are hurting tourism and threatening residents.

"This is partially related to homelessness, but not really -- because we also know, and this really disturbs me, that there are people panhandling who are not homeless," she said.

"There are people panhandling who realize this is a good opportunity to make a lot of money because most people are generous -- and they give a loonie or a toonie and that really adds up."


I would like to think people in TO have been waiting for some legislation such as this in order to dissuade the "homeless" from moving to TO to panhandle and accost people on a regular basis. I wonder how TO's  "homeless industry" will respond to this act of common sense. Isn't it ironic that it took a few politicians to get assaulted and badgered for them to actually take action on this matter, when countless people are hassled, assaulted, and guilt tripped almost every second downtown from the "homeless". Not to mention how the sight of  "homeless" people lying around, vomit, drug paraphernalia, stinky piss patches, (need I continue) beautify the landscape at Nathon Phillips Square...I bet the tourists love it! I know I do.....there's nothing like sitting down for lunch next to a "homeless" man laid out in his own piss, while asking me for change for his addiction, yet turning down offers for food

 

[monika]

As a Torontonian, I'll believe it when I see it. Passing the by-law will be pointless unless it is actually enforced.

 

[Trinity]

[ Not to mention how the sight of  "homeless" people lying around, vomit, drug paraphernalia, stinky piss patches, (need I continue) beautify the landscape at Nathon Phillips Square...I bet the tourists love it! I know I do.....there's nothing like sitting down for lunch next to a "homeless" man laid out in his own piss, while asking me for change for his addiction, yet turning down offers for food

Have you ever worked in a homeless shelter?  Have you really taken the time to explore the
homeless problem? You've just painted a huge stereotype over all the homeless, that they only
want money, are drunks and druggies, who are vile human beings. 

Has the above happened, probably.  All the time like you describe, no.  Some of these people
have mental illness, some choose to live on the street, some have no choice.  Not to mention
two or three families all living in one apartment cause they can't afford rent is also considered
part of the homeless problem. 

Your comments fall into my top 10 of ignorant things that i have read on this site.

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

Have you ever worked in a homeless shelter?  Have you really taken the time to explore the
homeless problem? You've just painted a huge stereotype over all the homeless, that they only
want money, are drunks and druggies, who are vile human beings. 

Has the above happened, probably.  All the time like you describe, no.  Some of these people
have mental illness, some choose to live on the street, some have no choice.  Not to mention
two or three families all living in one apartment cause they can't afford rent is also considered
part of the homeless problem. 

Your comments fall into my top 10 of ignorant things that i have read on this site.

+1 for Trinity. A lot of the people who like to condemn the homeless, are the ones whos only real interaction with the community is pretending not to see them, or simply stepping over them.

 

[monika]

Ditto.

My brother was schizophrenic, had colitis, arthritis, you name it he had it. If it weren't for my parents being retired and looking after him 24/7 we've no doubt he too would have been one of those people out in the street.

Yes, sometimes they scare the crap out of me but after some rough spells in my own life, I can't help thinking "There but for the grace of God go I" or my brother.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

But unfortunately, due to the stupidity of our medical laws we can't save these people to help save themselves......

Yes the days of mental patients walking endlessly in circles are long gone but the laws inacted to put a stop to that are long outdated.  Forced medication could be a good thing for the majority.....

 

[Danjanou]

Not to sound callous or flippant there Padre but I can answer yes to both of your posed questions.

I’m not going into details on an open forum but the other D/S do know what I do for a living and have in the past and can confirm I’m probably the site’s SME on homelessness and poverty.

This proposed law will either never come to pass, or if it does will never be enforced as is the case with the laws on the books now. We dare not violate someone’s inaliable Charter Rights to live in squalor and eventually freeze to death now can we?

Anyone who disagrees with that statement is immediately branded guilty of being cruel insensitive and/or some right wing clod by the oh so progressives who’s actions serve to perpetuate and exasperate the very situation they claim to be striving to end. Hell pets in the downtown core have more rights technically than those we claim are the downtrodden of society for whatever reason they find themselves in their situation. Don’t believe me try and abuse or neglect your neighbours puppy and watch how fast the wrath of the Birkenstock brigade will descend upon you.

Yeah this issue is complex but basically there is no political will do deal with it as in solve it. It’s a money maker and power maker, check out the thread on the site about the homeless census for the numbers of dollars involved. As for power, Layton used this as his cause de jour to catapult himself to bigger and better things and I would wager his self appointed successor Shapcott will do the same or at least try to. Crow and Clarke just like to hear their own names being bellied about in the press.

Pittfield may make this  along with crime an election issue in her bid to be mayor ( and good luck to her but ain't gonna happen darling)considering his blondness and his cabal at Havana on Queen West refuse to deal with either. That is unless using the ostrich technique of problem solving counts as dealing with an issue. That however is about it.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Pittfield may make this  along with crime an election issue in her bid to be mayor ( and good lick to her but ain't gonna happen darling)

+1 to Danjanou and Bruce.  However, I would want to see a photo of Ms. Pittfield before I would offer a "good lick".  ;D

In my experience there are two types of street people:  drug addicts and mental health sufferers (often referred to as MHA).  In all likelyhood, it is the drug addicts that are doing the aggressive panhandling, since the MHA's usually keep to themselves.  As far as sorting out the drug addicts, that is simple conditioned response.  If an action causes an unpleasant response, the action will be less likely to occur.  Oddly, no one ever asks me for change twice when I find myself touring the GTA.  If one grabbed me, there is a strong chance they would be hesitant to do that again in the future.  Drug addicts don't change until they have hit rock bottom, particularly crack heads.  They are the lowest form of sub life and need to be treated like animals.  Anyone who has dealt with them knows this. 
As for the MHA's, Bruce is bang on.  It is unfair in the extreme that these people live miserable lives because it is "against their rights" to force them to take medication.  We force children and elderly to take medication, or anyone who does not have the ability to make an informed choice.  People who would otherwise might be able to have a half way normal life on medication should have to submit to mandatory medication level testing every month, or have an apprehension warrant out for them to be put in an hospital and have their base line meds brought back up.  The state has a responsibility to them if they can't take care of themselves.

 

[Timmy!]

Have you ever worked in a homeless shelter?  Have you really taken the time to explore the
homeless problem? You've just painted a huge stereotype over all the homeless, that they only
want money, are drunks and druggies, who are vile human beings. 

Has the above happened, probably.  All the time like you describe, no.  Some of these people
have mental illness, some choose to live on the street, some have no choice.  Not to mention
two or three families all living in one apartment cause they can't afford rent is also considered
part of the homeless problem. 

Your comments fall into my top 10 of ignorant things that i have read on this site.

Padre I am with you on this !00%. I believe in the Footstep story. Even though they may not have a home or whatever. I feel it is my idea to him them out in any form if it need to be food or money. I will help carry them (in a away). Even if I am not the lord, but I shall help me in my heart.

This issue has always bother me. And this is one thing, I always wanted to end in a peaceful way.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Padre I am with you on this !00%. I believe in the Footstep story. Even though they may not have a home or whatever. I feel it is my idea to him them out in any form if it need to be food or money. I will help carry them (in a away). Even if I am not the lord, but I shall help me in my heart.

This issue has always bother me. And this is one thing, I always wanted to end in a peaceful way.

Stellar.  You are a better person than me.  Now just post your address on a soup kitchen wall and invite as many rubbies to live with you as your square footage can manage. 
In the long run, the only people charity makes feel good are the ones handing it out.

 

[Trinity]

For the record,

I objected to the "bulk" stereotype description of the homeless.

My opinion on panhandling is mixed.  I don't think making it illegal will
stop it.  Please don't get me mixed up in the two ideas.

 

[aluc]

http://www.torontosun.ca/News/TorontoAndGTA/2006/05/12/1576332-sun.html

Activists oppose Pitfield
By ZEN RURYK, CITY HALL BUREAU CHIEF


Demands that she resign as co-chairman of the city's homeless advisory committee because of her efforts to get tough with panhandlers were dismissed yesterday by Councillor Jane Pitfield.

Pitfield, who's running for mayor in November's municipal election, said she's heard complaints about panhandling from groups representing business and the tourism industry.

"We want people to return to Toronto when they come as visitors," she said. "When they see the extent of panhandling, it turns them off and many have said they won't come back."

The city should provide those in need with job training and counselling, she said.

Anti-poverty activists strongly oppose Pitfield's call for Toronto lawyers to report on the prospect of a bylaw banning panhandling.

Pitfield wants council to follow New York City's lead with a bylaw that states no one "can impede any other person's reasonable enjoyment" through panhandling. City council will deal with her request later this month.

Anti-poverty activists vow to bring their fight to Monday's homeless advisory committee meeting at City Hall.


I may have been a little harsh when ranting about the homeless problem in my initial post. Obviously the mentally ill do not deserve to be lumped together with the drug addicts and those that choose to work the streets. I realise that, and am apologetic to those I have offended, including the metally ill. However,  over the years I have begun to display less sympathy towards the drug addicts and career homeless that choose to be on the streets. It was their choice to experiment with the hardcore drugs that lead to the potentially devastating effects associated with these sorts of highly addictive narcotics. Now, placing the burden on average, hardworking citizens who are trying to make something out of themselves by continuously taxing them in order to "help" these people (on top of the panhandling) is not just. I realise that part of western ideology compells us to help the weak in their times of need, but how much is too much. If Jane Pitfield actually does what she is proposing (don't hold your breath) - banning panhandling, actually finding help for the downtrodden (instead of simply throwing money at the problem, as we have been doing ) I fully support her. We can't give the homeless the choice of living on the streets, we actively have to help them, not just throw money at them and give them the choice of using government programs only if they want to. Obviously I'm no expert in the homeless situation in TO, or on addictions and mental illness, yet I believe their has to be a better way to get people off the street - no one in Canada should have to endure these conditions. Now, I understand there are various programmes available for the homeless to use if they want to get their lives back on track, yet I also hear that many of them choose not to use these programmes and are content to simply live the life of a street person- this is not acceptable, especially if those that choose not to receive help are becoming burdensome.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I realise that, and am apologetic to those I have offended, including the metally ill.

Guess you have most of us figured out.  I took no offence.  ;D

 

[aluc]

  lol

 

[Hot Lips]

I must say I echo Trinity's various comments on this topic, especially any bashing of the mentally ill.  These illnesses are no different than those of the body...do you run down the street and yell hey heart attack...you...blah blah blah...no...then why do we do that with people with mental illnesses? 

Ignorance and fear...my guess.

Anyway...back to the topic of begging or pan-handling which ever you want to refer to it as. 
In Halifax not long ago this same topic came about and not much was done...it fizzled out. 
Basically there isn't much that can be done to these individuals aside from asking them to pan-handle elsewhere if it is in front of your business. ( I will check the by-laws to see if one was put in place).
I am not quite sure what became of the subject here in Halifax but I know it has become a non-media issue as of late.

HL

 

[GO!!!]

My solution to the problem would be to punish those causing the problem.

In this case - the people who give money to the beggars.

Impose a 150$ fine on any person who gives money to a beggar, and enforce it fanatically for a week or so. Once word gets out, most law abiding citizens will stop, for fear of making a much larger donation to city hall. The beggars go where the rich pickins are, and once people are punished for helping them, the problem will (at the very least) go elsewhere, if not away.

A question for Danjanou and Trinity though.

Here in Edmonton, there seems to be an exponential increase in beggars in the downtown core and Whyte ave. areas in the summer months, as opposed to the winter ones, when there are none. I've heard that the reason for this is that they come from BC with the warm weather, and go back in the fall.

Is there much truth to this "beggar migration" theory? If there is, it would surely paint the "homeless" more as opportunistic parasites than disadvantaged, mentally ill people who need our help.

I for one would love to see mentally ill people incapable of helping themselves taken off the streets and properly cared for, but it infuriates me to see able bodied teens smoking (10$/day) with multiple piercings (30-40$ each) and tattoos (50$/inch) begging. The only thing I want to give them is an uppercut. I can't afford to smoke or get all the tattoos I want, why are these clowns eating at soup kitchens?

 

[Danjanou]

My solution to the problem would be to punish those causing the problem.

In this case - the people who give money to the beggars.

Impose a 150$ fine on any person who gives money to a beggar, and enforce it fanatically for a week or so. Once word gets out, most law abiding citizens will stop, for fear of making a much larger donation to city hall. The beggars go where the rich pickins are, and once people are punished for helping them, the problem will (at the very least) go elsewhere, if not away.

A question for Danjanou and Trinity though.

Here in Edmonton, there seems to be an exponential increase in beggars in the downtown core and Whyte ave. areas in the summer months, as opposed to the winter ones, when there are none. I've heard that the reason for this is that they come from BC with the warm weather, and go back in the fall.

Is there much truth to this "beggar migration" theory? If there is, it would surely paint the "homeless" more as opportunistic parasites than disadvantaged, mentally ill people who need our help.

I for one would love to see mentally ill people incapable of helping themselves taken off the streets and properly cared for, but it infuriates me to see able bodied teens smoking (10$/day) with multiple piercings (30-40$ each) and tattoos (50$/inch) begging. The only thing I want to give them is an uppercut. I can't afford to smoke or get all the tattoos I want, why are these clowns eating at soup kitchens?

Go Actually I’ve become convinced of a migratory pattern among Downtown Squeegee Kids. They do seem to disappear in the winter months here and end up in Vancouver, returning again when the weather turns nice. Don’t have any empirical proof of this, it’s low on my list of things to look at. I’m sure an examination of welfare roles would prove or disprove my theory.

Incidentally a large percentage of Toronto’s migratory squeegee kids are originally from Quebec. As far as we can tell crackdowns on them by Montreal Police and civic officials forced them to adopt greener pastures as it were, more or less proving your theory would work.

Question the increase in beggars in Edmonton’s downtown core now would they be mostly younger say teenagers? If so probably the same phenomenon we in Toronto, again only my theory but I do have some proof to back it up, which I can’t go into on these means.

Most will claim either to social service agencies and/or to their marks (you good willed schmucks with the loonies and twoonies) that they left home because they were abused.

Now there is a proportion of these kids who’s claim to abuse is what most of us would call legitimate. That is to say physical and or sexual abuse by a parent, relative and/or other caregiver. They’re the ones you see begging for change in a snowdrift in the middle of January.

Come the warmer climes though the numbers increase. It’s not too cold out to sleep in a park if you can’t couch surf, and for many it’s cool (or should that be kewl) to rebel against mom and dad’s suburban middle class values and comforts for a couple of weeks.

Some of them will of course also claim to be victims of parental abuse, but when you get the details they are slightly less than those kids I mentioned earlier. Now the parental oppression includes such evils as “imposing curfews”, “confiscating drugs”, “refusing boy and/or girlfriend sleepovers” and event he dreaded “clean up your room.” Naturally when the weather turns most manage to make a miraculous reconciliation with their abusive rents.

I’ve dealt with both types in my professional capacity. I leave it to your imagination who gets more of my limited professional resources and compassion.

 

[Lexi]

As someone who's spent a few nights on the street, I can tell you it's not easy.

I'm not a drug addict, nor am I aggressive or crazy. I simply have issues at home. I was one of the many who were on the streets for reasons other than addiction.

I begged for money when I was hungry, I begged for money when I wanted to go buy a blanket from the Salvation Army to keep me warm. I didn't do it often, as it attracted attention to me, and so after only four days I was driven home by hunger. It has always been my opinion that we cannot judge the homeless, as we don't know their stories. Some may not have had the best of luck, made a wrong decision, were born with a handicap - mental or physical, or some could have had an unstable or unbearable home life and were driven by hatred out onto the streets. One could raise the point that we cannot judge those with addictions because we (hopefully) have not been addicted, and those of us who have can testify that overcoming such an obstacle is difficult. Even more so when you have nothing.

There will be aggressive people willing to lash out at you in all walks of life - including on the street. If you deal with them, you'll realise most of them are passive people who're just trying to get by. That said - if you outlaw panhandling, how will these people survive? Where will they go? Will the government help them? Should we chose to move them to another location... where?

Lexi.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

As someone who's spent a few nights on the street, I can tell you it's not easy.

I'm not a drug addict, nor am I aggressive or crazy. I simply have issues at home. I was one of the many who were on the streets for reasons other than addiction.

I begged for money when I was hungry, I begged for money when I wanted to go buy a blanket from the Salvation Army to keep me warm. I didn't do it often, as it attracted attention to me, and so after only four days I was driven home by hunger. It has always been my opinion that we cannot judge the homeless, as we don't know their stories. Some may not have had the best of luck, made a wrong decision, were born with a handicap - mental or physical, or some could have had an unstable or unbearable home life and were driven by hatred out onto the streets. One could raise the point that we cannot judge those with addictions because we (hopefully) have not been addicted, and those of us who have can testify that overcoming such an obstacle is difficult. Even more so when you have nothing.

There will be aggressive people willing to lash out at you in all walks of life - including on the street. If you deal with them, you'll realise most of them are passive people who're just trying to get by. That said - if you outlaw panhandling, how will these people survive? Where will they go? Will the government help them? Should we chose to move them to another location... where?

Lexi.

Okay, your profile shows you live in Hamilton.  Is that where you were a street person?  I am not familiar with the services there, but if there is a Sally Ann, I find it hard to believe that you could not have stayed there.  I think at this point, no one is ragging on the MHA's.  But sorry, if you are a drug addict, then screw you.  No one dies from the pain of addiction.  You are making a choice, plain and simple.  The penalties for choosing drugs are not severe enough, so people get the best of both worlds.  Look at Singapore and other countries where drug use will get you killed.  Remarkably low addiction rates, eh? 
How will they survive?  Hmm, I don't know, maybe pull their shit together, clean up and work like the rest of us. 
Where will they go?  Hmmm, I'll take "Topics I could care less about for $500, Alex".  Once these people get their crap wired, they can GO HOME!! 
Will the gov't help them  Yeah, it already does.  It's called welfare, and it is readily available for anyone who is willing to leech the system. 
Should we move them to another location?  Yeah, Nunavut strikes me as a good idea.  Put together press gangs to round up street tools (non MHA) and fire them up to the Arctic circle.  Put one person there to provide directions as to how to construct shelter and hunt/trap food.  If you can survive for three months, you are allowed to come back to civilization.  If you can't, then it doesn't really matter because you are polar bear food.  They would have a jump start on beating their addictions, develop a sense of team work and accomplishment.  IF they return, you give them one year at a shelter, with access to job retraining.  Daily surprise drug testing, and required community service when not in job training.  After one year, if you still fail to conduct yourself in a credible manner, you are cordially invited to die in the street. 
Seem harsh?  Of course it is.  But currently, we have a system that falls all over itself to molly coddle these losers and provide them with decent digs, free food and clothes, and no incentive to help themselves.  Drug addicts do not get help until they hit rock bottom.  Perhaps we can help bring the bottom to them. 
As for the passive street rascal that just wants a bit of love and attention, you run with that.  I'll go with desperate crack head who will pull a knife or syringe on you if they think you are someone they can victimize. 

Funny how all of these homeless rights people never seem to have any of them living in their homes?

 

[aluc]

Let's add fuel to the fire shall we.....I recently went to watch the Jays. As my girlfriend, a few other ladies and myself were returning home, we were approached by a young lady who was obviously an addict. Anyways, she proceeded to accost us for money, and then insult a few of the lady's who were present becasue all we had were bills. The ladies became a little frightened, but gave her all the change they had handy - maybe 35 cents or so. Well, this got our addict even more angry and aggressive because we had the audacity to only give her the little change we had. I got  pissed myself and chased her away, careful not to touch her of course. Is this what we are condoning as a society? Is this what we want tourists to see? How can people who are too timid to defend themselves supposed to walk around in TO without being accosted like this? We were not even downtown where it's worse.

  To make matters worse, our city council seems to think the situation is getting better downtown, and they'll fool you into believing it's safe to travel downtown.I was listening to  Former Police Services President Craig Brommel last week, and even he would tell you otherwise. I think he was at 51 Division downtown, and it was intersting to listen to him remark on how the situation hasn't gotten any better since he was working down there years ago. It was intersting listening to his weekday radio programme on 640 on this particular morning , because they were doing their broadcast from 51 Division.  He and the host of the show were remarking on the fact that when they were unloading their equipment , they were accosted a few times. Not to mention the fact that there were addicts, crackheads, etc, roaming all over the place. IT was quite funny. I'm not trying to make light of the situation, but the example I just recalled happens quite often..at least from my experiences and observations, and I'm not even downtown all that often.