Assisting Officers following a death & the PEN form

[McG]

When a soldier steps on himself, he gets to indicate a preference for the officer or sr NCO that will help him through the summary trial process.  While this is certainly appropriate, it has left me wondering if a similar such mechanism should exist for a soldier to select the officer or Sr NCO that will assist the family in the event of a death or injury.

I would think the PEN form could be amended to be the an ideal platform for a soldier to indicate an assisting officer preference (and just like summary trails, the preference could be trumped by operational requirements).

The issue is fun & happy like life insurance (in that it is neither, but it becomes too late to ask after you need it).  Has anyone else seen mechanisms in place to provide for the soldier's preference in this area?  Is it even something we should be doing?

 

[HItorMiss]

When I was injured my AO was a former Recce Pl NCO who knew me well, He saw my name on the list and selected me. The same usually applies as those working as AO's that know you will pick you, however sometimes it an who is available to be an AO. in my unit right now it's more a question of Beggars can't be choosers.

 

[Good2Golf]

Interesting question.

I would be flattered for any of my soldiers to trust and request specifically that I assist his/her family in the unfortunate event of their death.  I also do not need to know by any formal or official means that I would be asked to do so specifically, I would do so without a moment's hesitation. 

Without creating another box on that PEN form that we are only all too familiar with, I might suggest that soldiers could let their immediate supervisor know their wishes and their NCO could track it in their own files, vice instituting a form-based election to designate an AO.  That way, there wouldn't be a lengthy NDHQ-approved new form/modified form through committee, and there wouldn't be any harsh feelings held by those who might feel slighted at seeing huge numbers of AO requests for Officer X while they might not have (m)any.

G2G

 

[Trinity]

I think it would be better than the AO have no prior knowledge of the individual in question.

Knowing the individual would make the job much harder for the AO doing the paperwork and footwork
for his buddy/troop who just died. 

What if the requested AO was overseas, transferred, injured themselves, sick, unavailable for personal reasons? Too many possibilities
I could think of that would just add an extra inconveniences to a NOK situation.  There are enough
things that can go wrong with the family, AO and NOK's that I don't want to create another situation(s)
in which we can complicate the process.

 

[probum non poenitet]

I see some good in the idea ... however, what if one 'popular' officer got tagged for AO over and over? It can be one hell of an emotionally draining duty.

Imagine if Lt Bloggins already had one or two grieving families to look after (KIA or WIA), and then got the message that Pte X was seriously wounded had requested him. It might put Lt Bloggins, or his CO, in the possibly awkward position of saying no.

Or, Lt Bloggins might try to take on too much, burn himself out, and disappoint everyone.

Like Trinity says, somewhere in the process there has to be someone somewhat removed from the situation calling the shots.

 

[McG]

As an addition to my above, a soldier could also choose not to have a preference (in which case the assisting officer would not be selected with this consideration in mind).

What if the requested AO was overseas, transferred, injured themselves, sick, unavailable for personal reasons? Too many possibilities

As I had suggested, this is a preference and military requirements could dictate that the person listed as the preferred assisting officer not be selected.

Like Trinity says, somewhere in the process there has to be someone somewhat removed from the situation calling the shots.

See my above.  In the end, it would be a command thing.

 

[George Wallace]

I see some good in the idea ... however, what if one 'popular' officer got tagged for AO over and over? It can be one hell of an emotionally draining duty.

Several months ago we had a Topic on what the US Marine Corps does in handling the return of personnel KIA and how they had trained Officers and Snr NCOs who were assigned to this duty on a permanent basis.  They have the training and the knowledge to deal with the problems being faced by the family and the knowledge of what paperwork is required and what entitlements the families are due.  It looks like a very good program and one that we should have in place.  Picking an AO at the last minute to deal with these matters may be of some help, but it is not giving the Family and the CF the best service required.  We are dropping the ball.

 

[kratz]

I agree with George Wallace's reference to the US Marine Corps method. Back in the 90's, I had a situation where a person died, command came down to my office and I had to come up with answers that we normally do not know off by heart. My Sr staff were away on TD and I was the most Sr on site who had to find those answers. This was not a briefing I would wish on most people.

 

[Trinity]

As an addition to my above, a soldier could also choose not to have a preference (in which case the assisting officer would not be selected with this consideration in mind).
As I had suggested, this is a preference and military requirements could dictate that the person listed as the preferred assisting officer not be selected.
See my above.  In the end, it would be a command thing.

But try to explain that to some people.  You and I both know if person XYZ's name is in
the box... the family or individual might demand XYZ even if its not feesable as if its
some god given right. 

I think brainstorming ideas like this is great.  I totally see where your thought came from.
I totally appreciate the idea however, I forsee too many problems.

 

[dglad]

Don't forget, it's also a function of where the family is actually located.  A PPCLI soldier might be from, say, Thunder Bay.  In that case, the CO of the LSSR (or, possibly, another unit in TBay, but I believe the CO of the LSSR is "on first" when it comes to Army personnel) has the duty of notifying the family in Thunder Bay, and then assigning an AO from his unit.  The nearest PPCLI officer is probably in Shilo and, since the need for an AO may go on for quite some time, it just isn't reasonable to expect an officer from that far away to offer the sort of service the family deserves.  It gets even more complicated if the family doesn't live in Thunder Bay, but lives in, say, Marathon, Ontario, which is a 3.5 hour drive to the east.  It's still probably going to be an LSSR officer that gets assigned as AO, with the added burden of doing so from that sort of distance.  A PPCLI officer from Shilo would be faced with an additional 10 hour drive, or a 2 hour drive to Winnipeg followed by a 1 hour flight.

The idea of selecting an AO ahead of time is good in theory, but will probably turn out to be feasible in only a small minority of cases as there are many, many soldiers whose families don't actually live in close proximity to Edmonton, Shilo, Petawawa, Valcartier or Gagetown.  One could argue that it's still better to do it than not, but it might create an expectation that, in all likelihood, won't pan out.

 

[George Wallace]

That is why there should be a Cadre dedicated to this task.  A Cadre fully trained in the Administrative details, CF Funeral protocols, trained in Social Services and Grief Councilling.  Perhaps it should be a Cadre formed in the Medical Branch in conjunction with the Padres, but made up of all Trades.

I wish I could remember the title of the Topic on the US Marine system and how they run it, but it seem to be a very good system that showed the most respect and compassion to the family and departed, as well as the most effective method of administering it.  It does, however, call for a special type of person.

Perhaps tomahawk6 can remember it, as I think it was he who originally posted it.

Found it!   FINAL SALUTE (a series of articles on Maj Beck)    http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/news/article/0,1299,DRMN_3_4224659,00.html

Well worth the read.

 

[simysmom99]

Thanks for adding that link George.  A very good read indeed.
I have so far been through 3 AO's.  The first was a Sgt. that my dh had worked for and with for a number of years.  It was great for me in that I knew the Sgt. and he knew how to deal with me.  He had the joy of hysterical Audra (a treat I am sure) but bottom line was that he was there for me 24/7 for the first few months.  Then he went on course for more education (the nerve ;D).  My second guy was a young Lt. and he was great as well.  He didn't know us from a hole in the ground, but figured out our family very quickly and blended right in.  He is now deploying in the new year, which leads us to our 3rd guy... he no longer takes care of us.  Enough said.
I guess the bottom line is this.  I am and always have been very involved in the unit.  I make it my business to know the CO and RSM and the guys my dh works with.  When they guys are away, this is your family.  With that said, if I didn't have a strong AO, I never would have gotten through those first few months.  That is one hell of a tough job to say the least, and it does take a special person to jump into a family mid-crisis.
I agree that we should have folks dedicated to that.  Maybe if there was some formal training, the 3rd guy would not have been fired.

 

[dglad]

A dedicated cadre seems to be different than what the Marines do, however.  From the article:

There is no group of Marines whose primary task is death notification. Just as every Marine is a rifleman - expected to be able to handle a weapon and head to the front if tapped - any officer also may be called to make the walk to the door.

Using this model, we'd have a cadre of officers who are trained, whose secondary duty is notification and AO duties.  That could be do-able (because I don't think a military as small as ours can afford to devote pers full-time to this sort of duty...not to mention that it would be a tough trade to fill with the right people, and then keep filled).  And, in fact, we're actually developing the expertise in our officer corps, like it or no.  There are numerous officers involved currently in this duty (don't forget that, in addition to fatalities, wounded soldiers are also entitled to AOs), and a fair number of those are Res F officers (I know two in Thunder Bay that are currently AOs).  You're right, they weren't formally trained, and had to do it essentially as OJT.  It's a tough way to learn, so there should probably be something formal added to our junior officer training, probably early in DP2.

Incidentally, 38 CBG has undertaken this as PD for its COs, bringing in experts from groups like MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving), who are well-versed in doing the sad duty of notification.  There are also a good number of Res F officers who are police officers in civ life, who also have experience in notification.  Of course, this is different than the ongoing duties of an AO, but it's another area we're learning "on the go".

 

[Chimo]

First, it is difficult enough to get the NOK forms filled out properly with useful information when a death or injury occurs.
Second, we do not need a cadre of soldiers waiting for someone to be killed or injured. To me this is one of the responsibilities of the rank. What is missing from our training for Officers and SNCOs  proper NOK and AO duties and how to handle these things correctly. Having said that, each family is unique and requires individual handling.
I would hope that we could get our training system on board with this. 2 CMBG conducted NOK and AO training prior to this deployment and it was well done and well received. The MADD instructor was great and offered a good deal of insight into that dubious situation. 

 

[medaid]

I can see how some of these topics are slowly starting to rise in our minds, if not as prevelently as now. I think I will bring up this topic to my CoC it will go hand in hand with the Memorial Cross designations that I'm having my troops fill out. If there are courses available in this area, I am sure there will not be a shortage of noms. I would be the first one to put my name down on that list. If something happens to me... I would prefer if someone from my unit was the AO, and I'm sure any of the members in the unit would like the same thing. I would, and I'm positive that many of us would bust our a**es for the ones we know. I just want to be able to do it right.

 

[captainj]

Some interesting ideas have come up in this thread. I was selected as a AO because I knew the Dad and recruited and enrolled the troop. I had zero training and was on the plane to Germany within 18 hours. Frankly the publication the CF has is full of info re a AO's job in the event of a death however for the wounded there is little in the way of help therefore, apply comman sense. I believe a separate pam needs to be published for the wounded outlining entitlements etc. How many AO's know what a family is entitled to and how they can get help to increase the 15 days to 30 days etc. If this was there would be far less surprises for the family. I had the good sense to work hand in glove with the Med people, thank god I did. Highly recommend that to anyone tagged to be a AO. DO YOUR HOMEWORK, you owe it to the wounded and the family. I am indeed fortunate that the love of my life aka "she who must be obeyed" was a nurse in the British Army (a Major at that and took me in as a MWO did good for a ranker) and here in Canada is a Cancer nurse. By this I mean between N Ireland and Princess Margaret Hospital she has dealt with this biz more than she deserves. I called her every night to talk about the events of the day and get mentoring on the next. Frankly it was trial by fire. Perhaps a few people like her who deal with this on a daily basis rather than MADD would serve us better. 

I think the selection of an AO should be one of casting vs tasking. Lets be honest it isn't for everyone, units that send a 23 year old Lt are asking for trouble if the woundeds Father is a type A aggressive man. This really happend and the poor Lt was left out to hang big time. Families can get tighter because of these events and all too often can rip apart at the seams. Sure there is the Adm and Log part of the process that you can teach any monkey to preform. The really difficult part that is art rather than science is managing the family and expectations. Indeed the AO needs to have the strength to not feel sorry for the wounded but to support, mentor and at times be the one to push the wounded to help themselves. In addition you need to show compassion mixed with strength toward the family.

I was told by a Sgt a few weeks ago that she thought she would be an excellent AO because of her nurturing ways. This was at a high end social function where sadly the boys were on display. (Another issue that burns me PAFF O's who do not give these folks dignity that issue was sorted our real quick). I said to her (she works within the PAFF world) all you see is this part of the job. Will you be there if and when he is told he cannot walk, she said oh that will never happen. The morale of the story is this is not a fun job. It is emotional, difficult, humbling but it is rewarding. These are real issues involving real people where the DS solution isn't always at hand

Another issue I am finding is managing the well meaning within the CF. "Oh I have so and so who wants to visit etc". It seems to me everybody wants to send a surrogate visitor rather than do it themselves. These folks really want to see people and not to be forgotten by their fellow soldiers and Leaders. For me this is a burning issue.......................

I agree this certainly could be an occupation but the selection of mbrs should be done with care. The old saying differant horses for differant courses is best in this case.

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night. 

 

[medaid]

I am starting a family support program for the members who are deploying overseas. I'm finding it kind of tough to put the package together... I understand that dispite it's morbid nature... it has to be done for both the troop and the family if something does happen. Just wandering if there is a rank specification for an AO, or is it up to the CO to appoint one? Despite my lowly rank, the troops going overseas are my friends, and the troops under me. If something happens, I want to be there for the family, and for them...

Merry Christmas to all.

 

[captainj]

At the end of the day it is up to the CO to appoint. To the best of my knowledge there is no "rank" spec for the task. That being said I would suggest someone who has been around the block and knows his/her way around a BOR. In addition someone who knows how to stand up and do the right thing, no matter what. If one is looking to get a PER supreme out of this forget it. This is one job where the troops actually come first and foremost. As I say beware of those PAFF O's maybe it is just me but I have become rather protective of my little lamb. 

 

[medaid]

I agree its troops first, and I for one am most definitely NOT looking for a brilliant PER out of it. I care about them, and that's why I'm starting the support program for the family for those that are deploying.

captainj, when you get a chance after the celebrations of the holidays, could you please PM me some of your experiences in a little more detail so I can take that and bring it to a few of my colleagues who are working on this program with me?


Cheers!

 

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

A number of good posts on this.  However,

Picking an AO at the last minute to deal with these matters may be of some help, but it is not giving the Family and the CF the best service required.  We are dropping the ball.

This is untrue.  There has been very little said other than praise for the AOs and support provided to the families of the wounded and injured.  I wonder what the source of this comment is, what justification you have for it and wonder if you would tell the officers and NCOs out there that have been doing, as captj put it, this "emotionally draining" rollercoaster of a job to their face that they are "dropping the ball."  I also wonder how you can make such a broad generalization about what errors the CF has made in its casualty support when there has been no mention of improper support or uncaring, ill-informed AOs in the media.  Your statement insults every one of those officers and NCOs who would much rather be deployed and taking the fight to the enemy, but are instead doing an unpleasant duty and for the most part doing it well.

AOs, for the most part are not "picked at the last minute".  In most units, every Rear Party officer and NCO receives training in doing this type of duty on a rudimentary level at the very least, and in LFCA there was a very good aide-memoire produced a few years ago specifically geared to these duties.  Let's not forget that these AOs are not going it alone - yes they are the POC for the family but they have unit Chief Clerks, Adjts, Padres, Base Chaplains, Social Workders, Bde Supt Clerks and a host of other sources of assistance supporting them.  Surely you remember in 2005/06 when the RCD lost 3 Sr NCOs in less than 6 months , all suddenly, not relating to combat or deployment.  AOs were selected very quickly and did not have the chance for any training before hand.  Go to the families and see if they were satisfied with the support they received - I already know the answer to that question.  I also know that the Chief Clerk and others in support roles worked hours as long and intensively as the AOs to make sure that the families were taken care of as a team.  The AO is not a sole-source provider, he or she is the representative of the team and family that takes care of our people.

In terms of troops selecting an AO, the point about the selectee not being available has been brought up.  Another point on this theme is that popularity does not necessarily mean competence.  The unit chain of command often has a better idea of an officer's competence to perform such an important duty than the soldiers do.  Sure, Lt X may be a great guy - fit, quick with a smoke and a joke with the boys in the smoking area, a good shot, plays hockey, drinks hard at the troop parties, reasonably switched on in the field and viewed by the troops as "a great guy" and very popular.  But he may be an administrative train wreck, not be able to give a briefing to save his life, speak to people about anything else than the Army, fast cars and unarmed combat, or demonstrate any kind of proper tact and empathy.  Even though selected by a soldier, he may not give the soldier's family the support that they deserve. 

No unit CO and RSM, unless they are truly scraping the bottom of the bucket, would knowingly send an incompetent officer or NCO to be an AO.  I think that those who have worked hard and demonstrated the competence to make it to those positions should continue to make those kind of decisions.