C3 Howitzer Replacement

[GR66]

interesting with all the attention wheeled SPH have been getting i took a look at NATO Europe numbers and tracked still dominates. If you include Greece and Turkey its 2 to 1

Possibly because wheeled SPH's are relatively new compared to tracked and lots of European armies are sitting on legacy equipment? It would be interesting to see what the split is in what's been purchased in the last decade or so.

My gut tells me that the CA will go for a wheeled SPH to go along with the wheeled LAV because there is no plan to replace the LAV's with a tracked IFV. Personally I'd be tempted to go with the K9 Thunder given the current political atmosphere.

 

[armyvern]

My exposure to this was working to move 2CMBG from Pet to Fort Irwin CA vial rail head and Air, and back. I was just a killick storesman at the time, but It was in impressive undertaking, and to see it work was fascinating. Sadly, I believe I was told on here the rail head at Pet is gone.


Its amazing how many people do not understand this. And its also amazing how many people think what we do have is just sitting around waiting for a call. Booking a C17 is being done year(s) in advance. You cant just call up the RCAF and have them whip one out.

Air and Sea lift is a place we should be investing.

Surely you must remember the move of Div and JSR assets from Kingston to Wainwright with the tented camp et al.

I gave them two esitmates:

Road Move in entireity; and
Road/Rail Move.

Pointing out that the road move in entireity would actually be less human intensive and logisticly sound and just a bit more expensive. Both at 4mil+

When JOSG & CJOC queried my cost estimate for the move out/back telling me my figures simply were not realisitic; move this stuff by rail the entire way from Petawawa they said. I had to point out that the nearest capable and open railhead was now Thunder Bay ... so it may as well drive the whole way out and back.

They still selected to road/rail the lot and then the bills came in. We were within 600.00 bucks on our estimate. Sometimes, the CAF does stupid things. All that post-Cold War "Peace Dividend" divestment & demilitarization sure has paid off these days hasn't it?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Surely you must remember the move of Div and JSR assets from Kingston to Wainwright with the tented camp et al.

I gave them two esitmates:

Road Move in entireity; and
Road/Rail Move.

Pointing out that the road move in entireity would actually be less human intensive and logisticly sound and just a bit more expensive. Both at 4mil+

When JOSG & CJOC queried my cost estimate for the move out/back telling me my figures simply were not realisitic; move this stuff by rail the entire way from Petawawa they said. I had to point out that the nearest capable and open railhead was now Thunder Bay ... so it may as well drive the whole way out and back.

They still selected to road/rail the lot and then the bills came in. We were within 600.00 bucks on our estimate. Sometimes, the CAF does stupid things. All that post-Cold War "Peace Dividend" divestment & demilitarization sure has paid off these days hasn't it?

I don't think I was there for this. I spent most of time at JSR in 1 Sqn and 1 Line Sqn though, so I may have just missed it.

I have also never been to Wainwright, or my mind has blocked that from my memory lol

 

[Kirkhill]

That gets into SR missions, and “layback” patrols, that require deep understanding of the AO, partisan support and language skills.

IMHO you can get better results with GeoSpacial assets for anything but time sensitive targets.

Take another look at that map. The notional AO has something like 300 million people, lots of towns and villages and many highways and narrow roads. Is it really safe to go launching rounds in that environment based solely on the proverbial "straw"? Aren't you going to need eyeballs, and ears, on the target to clear the target?

Otherwise, next thing you know, you're putting rounds into the Chinese Embassy inadvertently instead of on purpose.

 

[KevinB]

Take another look at that map. The notional AO has something like 300 million people, lots of towns and villages and many highways and narrow roads. Is it really safe to go launching rounds in that environment based solely on the proverbial "straw"? Aren't you going to need eyeballs, and ears, on the target to clear the target?

Otherwise, next thing you know, you're putting rounds into the Chinese Embassy inadvertently instead of on purpose.

I don’t think you understand what accuracy can be from satellite imagery. Most of the targets you are aiming for with those long range strike systems are static.

Also I think you are missing the danger to losing a SOF team in that sort of situation.

 

[armyvern]

I don't think I was there for this. I spent most of time at JSR in 1 Sqn and 1 Line Sqn though, so I may have just missed it.

I have also never been to Wainwright, or my mind has blocked that from my memory lol

JOINTEx 12. Just prior to your arrival at the Regiment then IIRC.

 

[suffolkowner]

Possibly because wheeled SPH's are relatively new compared to tracked and lots of European armies are sitting on legacy equipment? It would be interesting to see what the split is in what's been purchased in the last decade or so.

My gut tells me that the CA will go for a wheeled SPH to go along with the wheeled LAV because there is no plan to replace the LAV's with a tracked IFV. Personally I'd be tempted to go with the K9 Thunder given the current political atmosphere.

counting Greece and Turkey 1100 to 511 without
785 to 511

tracked

Germany

Italy

Spain

Netherlands

Norway

Finland

Poland

Romania

Bulgaria

Wheeled

uk

France

Denmark

Sweden

Poland

Czechia

Slovakia

Could be age of acquisition or industrial capacity/preference

probably more interesting than informative lol

 

[FJAG]

That AO suggests that each HIMARS/MLRS regiment needs to be associated with something like a Special Forces "spotter" element. The USMC/USN has/had their ANGLICO teams. The Brits now seem to be leveraging their experience with long range FOO teams (reserve Special Forces units like 21 and 23 SAS and the HAC used to have that as an assignment - I think 5 Regiment Royal Artillery still does something of the sort) Not all spotting can be managed by UAVs and satellites.

5 RA is part of the Brit's 3 Division's 1st Recce Deep Strike Brigade Combat Team. 1st Bde is an interesting mix of the divisions primary recce elements (two armoured and two light cavalry regiments) and all its artillery (1 RHA [AS 90]; 19 RA [Archer]; 3 RHA [MLRS]; 26 RA [MLRS]; 101 RA [ResF L118]; 104 RA [Resf MLRS]; and 5 RA [STA]). The theory is of a force which can rapidly deploy forward and degrade an enemy advance while the two manoeuvre BCTs (12 and 20 ABCT) deploy. For a while I was contemplating that for my above napkin force and having the div cav regt (FGH) be part of 38 CAB. 5 RA's STA resources are not extensive and I don't think that their radars are as good as our MRRs and their acoustic system is the same (I think). Their deep FOO capabilities are in 4/73 (Sphinx) Special OP Battery. As @KevinB points out, that type of observation is also part of various special forces special reconnaissance operations.

I had to point out that the nearest capable and open railhead was now Thunder Bay ... so it may as well drive the whole way out and back.

Interesting. When I served there in the 70s, there was an active rail line that paralleled Hwy 17 all the way to Ottawa. I just looked at Google Earth and it now seems to stop at Mattawa with the last major yard being at North Bay.

I've done some rail moves of M109 regiments both in Germany and also at Shilo for RV81. It was an eyeopener as to how well equipped the regiment in Germany and the DB was for rail moves while both the army in Canada and CNR/CPR are very poorly equipped. What was a one day job to load a regiment in Germany took four days in Canada - the cars sucked and the dunnage was slipshod. This is the railhead in Shilo. A bit short and one needed to load in segments but it was workable. Rail moves are something that need to be exercised regularly if they are to be efficient.

 

[PrairieFella]

5 RA is part of the Brit's 3 Division's 1st Recce Deep Strike Brigade Combat Team. 1st Bde is an interesting mix of the divisions primary recce elements (two armoured and two light cavalry regiments) and all its artillery (1 RHA [AS 90]; 19 RA [Archer]; 3 RHA [MLRS]; 26 RA [MLRS]; 101 RA [ResF L118]; 104 RA [Resf MLRS]; and 5 RA [STA]). The theory is of a force which can rapidly deploy forward and degrade an enemy advance while the two manoeuvre BCTs (12 and 20 ABCT) deploy. For a while I was contemplating that for my above napkin force and having the div cav regt (FGH) be part of 38 CAB. 5 RA's STA resources are not extensive and I don't think that their radars are as good as our MRRs and their acoustic system is the same (I think). Their deep FOO capabilities are in 4/73 (Sphinx) Special OP Battery. As @KevinB points out, that type of observation is also part of various special forces special reconnaissance operations.

Interesting. When I served there in the 70s, there was an active rail line that paralleled Hwy 17 all the way to Ottawa. I just looked at Google Earth and it now seems to stop at Mattawa with the last major yard being at North Bay.

I've done some rail moves of M109 regiments both in Germany and also at Shilo for RV81. It was an eyeopener as to how well equipped the regiment in Germany and the DB was for rail moves while both the army in Canada and CNR/CPR are very poorly equipped. What was a one day job to load a regiment in Germany took four days in Canada - the cars sucked and the dunnage was slipshod. This is the railhead in Shilo. A bit short and one needed to load in segments but it was workable. Rail moves are something that need to be exercised regularly if they are to be efficient.

I find your div recce concept interesting, what do you envision the structure/composition of such a cav regt to be?

 

[armyvern]

5 RA is part of the Brit's 3 Division's 1st Recce Deep Strike Brigade Combat Team. 1st Bde is an interesting mix of the divisions primary recce elements (two armoured and two light cavalry regiments) and all its artillery (1 RHA [AS 90]; 19 RA [Archer]; 3 RHA [MLRS]; 26 RA [MLRS]; 101 RA [ResF L118]; 104 RA [Resf MLRS]; and 5 RA [STA]). The theory is of a force which can rapidly deploy forward and degrade an enemy advance while the two manoeuvre BCTs (12 and 20 ABCT) deploy. For a while I was contemplating that for my above napkin force and having the div cav regt (FGH) be part of 38 CAB. 5 RA's STA resources are not extensive and I don't think that their radars are as good as our MRRs and their acoustic system is the same (I think). Their deep FOO capabilities are in 4/73 (Sphinx) Special OP Battery. As @KevinB points out, that type of observation is also part of various special forces special reconnaissance operations.

Interesting. When I served there in the 70s, there was an active rail line that paralleled Hwy 17 all the way to Ottawa. I just looked at Google Earth and it now seems to stop at Mattawa with the last major yard being at North Bay.

I've done some rail moves of M109 regiments both in Germany and also at Shilo for RV81. It was an eyeopener as to how well equipped the regiment in Germany and the DB was for rail moves while both the army in Canada and CNR/CPR are very poorly equipped. What was a one day job to load a regiment in Germany took four days in Canada - the cars sucked and the dunnage was slipshod. This is the railhead in Shilo. A bit short and one needed to load in segments but it was workable. Rail moves are something that need to be exercised regularly if they are to be efficient.

It's a sad state. It was certainly easier for us to load up for RVs in Petawawa back in the day.

 

[Halifax Tar]

dunnage

We don't use that word enough anymore.

 

[Kirkhill]

5 RA is part of the Brit's 3 Division's 1st Recce Deep Strike Brigade Combat Team. 1st Bde is an interesting mix of the divisions primary recce elements (two armoured and two light cavalry regiments) and all its artillery (1 RHA [AS 90]; 19 RA [Archer]; 3 RHA [MLRS]; 26 RA [MLRS]; 101 RA [ResF L118]; 104 RA [Resf MLRS]; and 5 RA [STA]). The theory is of a force which can rapidly deploy forward and degrade an enemy advance while the two manoeuvre BCTs (12 and 20 ABCT) deploy. For a while I was contemplating that for my above napkin force and having the div cav regt (FGH) be part of 38 CAB. 5 RA's STA resources are not extensive and I don't think that their radars are as good as our MRRs and their acoustic system is the same (I think). Their deep FOO capabilities are in 4/73 (Sphinx) Special OP Battery. As @KevinB points out, that type of observation is also part of various special forces special reconnaissance operations.

Interesting. When I served there in the 70s, there was an active rail line that paralleled Hwy 17 all the way to Ottawa. I just looked at Google Earth and it now seems to stop at Mattawa with the last major yard being at North Bay.

I've done some rail moves of M109 regiments both in Germany and also at Shilo for RV81. It was an eyeopener as to how well equipped the regiment in Germany and the DB was for rail moves while both the army in Canada and CNR/CPR are very poorly equipped. What was a one day job to load a regiment in Germany took four days in Canada - the cars sucked and the dunnage was slipshod. This is the railhead in Shilo. A bit short and one needed to load in segments but it was workable. Rail moves are something that need to be exercised regularly if they are to be efficient.

Remember that Europe built a network of rails where there had been mud tracks before. Autobahns were a revelation to them. Cars were only for the rich until recently. We went at it the other way round. Low population densities favoured cars and then paved roads with rail being primarily for bulk cargoes. We ripped up our spur lines because they couldn't support the cost of maintenance, just not enough traffic.

 

[Kirkhill]

I find your div recce concept interesting, what do you envision the structure/composition of such a cav regt to be?

https://www.army.mod.uk/learn-and-explore/about-the-army/formations-divisions-brigades/3rd-united-kingdom-division/1-deep-reconnaissance-strike-brigade-combat-team/

SCORPION CYCLONE ~ 1st Deep Reconnaissance Strike BCT | Joint Forces News

SCORPION CYCLONE 2023 was the first major field exercise for the UK's new 1st Deep Reconnaissance Strike (1 DRS) Brigade Combat Team (BCT).

www.joint-forces.com

This publication will clarify the DSR Bde as the Brits see it.

https://www.army.mod.uk/learn-and-explore/army-of-the-future/readiness/future-soldier/

1st Deep Recce Strike Brigade Combat Team​

[edit]

• 1st Deep Recce Strike Brigade Combat Team, in Tidworth
  • Household Cavalry Regiment, in Bulford (Armoured Cavalry)
  • Royal Lancers, in Catterick (Armoured Cavalry; will move to Tidworth in 2026)
  • 1st Queen's Dragoon Guards, in Swanton Morley (Light Cavalry; will move to Caerwent by 2027)
  • Royal Yeomanry, in Leicester (Light Cavalry - Reserve)
  • 
    
  • 5th Regiment, Royal Artillery, in Catterick (Surveillance and Target Acquisition)
  • 
    
  • 3rd Regiment, Royal Horse Artillery, in Newcastle upon Tyne (Deep Fires)
  • 26 Regiment, Royal Artillery, in Larkhill (Deep Fires)
  • 101 Regiment, Royal Artillery, in Gateshead (Deep Fires - Reserve)
  • 
    
  • 1st Regiment, Royal Horse Artillery, in Larkhill (Armoured Close Support Artillery)
  • 19 Regiment, Royal Artillery, in Larkhill (Armoured Close Support Artillery)
  • 104 Regiment, Royal Artillery, in Newport (Close Support Artillery - Reserve)
  • 
    
  • 6 Armoured Close Support Battalion, Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, in Tidworth (Close Support)

Future Soldier (British Army) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[FJAG]

I find your div recce concept interesting, what do you envision the structure/composition of such a cav regt to be?

Small explanation. You'll note in the above diagram that 1 Div - targeted for NATO has a cav regt but that 2 Div targeted for NA and other missions doesn't. If you drill down, the three CABGs in 1 Div do not have separate cav regts but each armoured regt has a cav squadron and the inf bns their CS coys with a recce pl, mortar platoon and anti-armd platoon. In 2 Div OTOH, since it is not organized to deploy as a div but as sep bdes or battle groups, there is a cav regt in each of 2, 34 and 5 bdes and a cav regt(-) in each of the two coastal infantry regiments (which each consist of an inf bn(+), a cav regt (-), a Ranger patrol group and a CSS coy)

Note that the mil symbol for each cav unit consists of a combination or armoured, wheeled, anti-armour and recce. I'm not 100% settled on the 1 Div cav regt being wheeled. - it's a question of whether all cav regt's across the board are identical or whether the 1 div one should be identical in structure but mounted on tracks (I know where @KevinB sits on that question.)

I see each cav regt having four squadrons (five counting CSS) - three cav squadrons and a CS squadron.

Each cav squadron has two recce troops (in light recce vehs armed with ATGMs and MUAVs); two tank troops (if tracked or DFSV if wheeled), and a CS troop with a SUAVs sect, a 120mm mortar sect and a loitering munitions sect)

The CS squadron has a TUAV troop; a mortar/loitering munitions troop; an AD troop; and a CBRN recce troop

Just spit balling. I'm vehicle agnostic.

 

[KevinB]

IF I was Canada right now - I would be making a deal with BAE to build a few production facilities:
L110 105mm
M777 155mm
As well as the SK's...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Maybe state that bids that are ITAR free will get preference or outright excluded?

 

[KevinB]

Maybe state that bids that are ITAR free will get preference or outright excluded?

Make the TDP (and just as importantly the Work Instructions) part and parcel and be built in Canada.

 

[FJAG]

IF I was Canada right now - I would be making a deal with BAE to build a few production facilities:
L110 105mm
M777 155mm
As well as the SK's...

With IMF, it might be better for a K9 facility - the Aussies have built one for some 45 and a bunch of K10 Limbers. Our order for around 100 should make that viable and we would be positioned well for European sales. I would think that a steel K9 has simpler fabrication issues than a titanium M777. But then there's that 80kph thing. Hopefully that gets rationalized downward in the RFP together with a few other specs that are quite limiting.