Colin Parkinson
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Seems like the C3 is not going anywhere soon. Apparently we have 93 still in operation https://buyandsell.gc.ca/procurement-data/tender-notice/PW-BM-036-26282
C3 Howitzer Replacement
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Colin Parkinson
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Speaking of which I have heard that the LG-1 is a bit problematic, but have never heard what the issues were?
Colin Parkinson
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Thanks, now as I understand it, SK has 1500 105mm in storage, buy 1-200 of them, refit some to C2 standard for training and update some to C3 for operational use.
Colin P said:
Design-wise the carriage is "garbage" because the wheels can only be lowered, and firing platform raised, as the trail legs are closed. This causes problems for bringing the gun out of action when spades on said trail legs are buried deep from firing, even more so when in spring thaw/freeze conditions.
There have been a number of reliability problems, first with cracking barrels, which was eventually fixed, but then more recently cracking breech rings (not fixed, far as I know). There have been other issues with a high failure rate of components. For example the original indirect fire sight was so bad it was replaced by the same panoramic telescope used on the C1/2 and C3, and the hydraulic pump for closing the trails is another sore point.
The gun does have some advantages though, its semi automatic breech can give it a high rate of fire, and is accurate due to a relatively stable platform. It's also capable of firing long range ammunition, the High Explosive Extended Range round, although the HEER round causes considerable barrel wear
The gun at least still has an Original Equipment Manufacturer in existence to support it, something the C3 does not. The lack of an OEM for the C3 has presented problems for sustained use, and especially when something drastic happens, like a carriage snapping in two, or barrels cracking, trail legs warping, the list goes on
IIRC, in late 2010 or early 2011, the decision was made to make the LG1 a training only gun (so is the C3 BTW), and all the LG1 were pooled in the Atlantic area in order to support sustained training at the Artillery School. Part of the rationale was due to looming support problems for the C3 fleet (see above)
I doubt very much there's any impetus to replace them with anything, same goes for C3 (although binning the C3 and buying up a bunch of surplus M101 would be a good idea IMO)
That's basically what was happening with the C3, only it was the Fleet Maintenance Facility in Esquimalt that was doing the rebuilding and manufacture of parts for the C3, and although that works, to a degree, there remain some intellectual proprietary rights problems with the C3, which is mentioned in that LOI for C3 barrels. |
Colin Parkinson
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It really grinds me when I hear "We can't maintain it any longer" It's 1940's tech, the real problem is that we won't maintain it or maintain the capacity to do so.
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That capability should be replaced with something far more modern. While replacing every gun in the artillery park with a M-777 or maybe an "Archer" would be ideal, modern 120mm mortars have the range, weight of fire and even selections of "smart" and iron rounds which can provide all kinds of effects on the battlespace.
And of course weapons like DragonFire 2, AMOS or the Israeli "Spear" have much smaller manning and support requirements (often only needing a utility vehicle like a HMMVW to tow or carry it), making them ideal for Reserve artillery units which have limited manpower and resources anyway.
And of course weapons like DragonFire 2, AMOS or the Israeli "Spear" have much smaller manning and support requirements (often only needing a utility vehicle like a HMMVW to tow or carry it), making them ideal for Reserve artillery units which have limited manpower and resources anyway.
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Another out of the box idea from Israel, a long rang loitering UAV. This has the attributes of an ATGM, but can have the range of up to 250km. so rather than replace or try to rebuild ancient artillery tubes, look out of the box. The USMC has a somewhat similar idea, although scaled down and designed to work as a "swarming munition (LOCUST), perhaps a split between singular non swarming weapons and swarming munitions would complicate the battlespace for potential enemies (and of course there are still the 155mm howitzers to deal with as well).
How we do artillery probably needs a huge rethink as the means of delivering fire evolve past "tubes". A mixed artillery park which can deliver a wide range of effects will allow the CF to operate in a much broader range of environments from "Near Peer" to COIN, and provide valuable tools to assist our allied partners (rather than being the poor relations who need to borrow everything from them).
https://uvisionuav.com/our-technology/
How we do artillery probably needs a huge rethink as the means of delivering fire evolve past "tubes". A mixed artillery park which can deliver a wide range of effects will allow the CF to operate in a much broader range of environments from "Near Peer" to COIN, and provide valuable tools to assist our allied partners (rather than being the poor relations who need to borrow everything from them).
https://uvisionuav.com/our-technology/
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Another out of the box idea is the Chinese SH-5 105mm SP howitzer.
While I would not propose to buy from China, the vehicle itself is a fairly simple 6X6 chassis, and is really only the size of a large utility vehicle and its trailer (if you consider the rear part the "trailer" carrying the artillery ready rounds then you get a better idea of the size). Once again, this is potentially something we could build ourselves in Canada using Canadian industry. Once again this is something which is the sigh sort of size and "footprint" for a reserve unit. Other vehicles like a FOO/FAC, Artillery post CP and transport vehicles to carry extra ammunition cold also be built on that chassis as well.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/china_artillery_vehicles_and_weapon_systems_uk/sh5_wheeled_self-propelled_howitzer_105mm_technical_data_sheet_specifications_description_pictures.html
While I would not propose to buy from China, the vehicle itself is a fairly simple 6X6 chassis, and is really only the size of a large utility vehicle and its trailer (if you consider the rear part the "trailer" carrying the artillery ready rounds then you get a better idea of the size). Once again, this is potentially something we could build ourselves in Canada using Canadian industry. Once again this is something which is the sigh sort of size and "footprint" for a reserve unit. Other vehicles like a FOO/FAC, Artillery post CP and transport vehicles to carry extra ammunition cold also be built on that chassis as well.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/china_artillery_vehicles_and_weapon_systems_uk/sh5_wheeled_self-propelled_howitzer_105mm_technical_data_sheet_specifications_description_pictures.html
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SH5_wheeled_self_propelled_howitzer_105mm_China_Chinese_defence_industry_military_technology_004.jpg -
SH5_wheeled_self_propelled_howitzer_105mm_China_Chinese_defence_industry_military_technology_002.jpg
Colin Parkinson
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Buy some of SK 105mm gun in their reserves, build a mount that drops into the rear bed of the current gun tractors. these are the short barrelled version , but they be perfect for training. In the meantime work on a deployable version with a longer barrel and semi-armoured truck. SK has already done this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRaMiC6AjXo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRaMiC6AjXo
I doubt we'll see anything bought for Primary Reserve (P Res) Arty units anytime soon, but it's a fair guess there might be a realignment of roles/tasks in the near future
My :2c:
The P Res units in the Atlantic area will keep their LG1s so they can continue to support training at the Artillery School, and to be prepared to Force Generate (FG) individuals for tasks with Regular Force Artillery units in general
Units at saluting bases (Ottawa and Provincial capitals) will keep their C3's for that role, and to facilitate training that supports FG personnel for Reg Force Arty units (except for Charlottetown and St John's, who use LG1's)
Units at non- salute bases lose their C3's and are re-roled to mortars only, to support FG mortar Dets for Reg Force Infantry Battalions; this, in addition to the recent specialization tasks they've been given (which aren't arty specific). The C3's withdrawn from these units would provide more depth to sustain the fleet through cannibalization
My :2c:
The P Res units in the Atlantic area will keep their LG1s so they can continue to support training at the Artillery School, and to be prepared to Force Generate (FG) individuals for tasks with Regular Force Artillery units in general
Units at saluting bases (Ottawa and Provincial capitals) will keep their C3's for that role, and to facilitate training that supports FG personnel for Reg Force Arty units (except for Charlottetown and St John's, who use LG1's)
Units at non- salute bases lose their C3's and are re-roled to mortars only, to support FG mortar Dets for Reg Force Infantry Battalions; this, in addition to the recent specialization tasks they've been given (which aren't arty specific). The C3's withdrawn from these units would provide more depth to sustain the fleet through cannibalization
Colin Parkinson
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The "Fleet"? Yea more like the "mortal remains" of a once proud line of Howitzers :'(
As for the rerole idea, an excellent way to ensure people don't bother sticking around or signing up. Mortars are nice, but a gun is just that much more of an attraction. Sort of like putting up a neon sign saying "The military is utterly incompetent in ensuring we have the equipment to do the job". I know people are trying to make lemonade, but it does it look good for anyone coming in when they ask: "So where are the artillery guns?".
towed 120mm would at least be a good argument.
As for the rerole idea, an excellent way to ensure people don't bother sticking around or signing up. Mortars are nice, but a gun is just that much more of an attraction. Sort of like putting up a neon sign saying "The military is utterly incompetent in ensuring we have the equipment to do the job". I know people are trying to make lemonade, but it does it look good for anyone coming in when they ask: "So where are the artillery guns?".
towed 120mm would at least be a good argument.
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Infanteer said:What if I told you that AM General already did that.
http://www.amgeneral.com/our-products-and-services/hmmwv-hawkeye/
Definitely a role for something like that - 82nd Abn or 16 Air Aslt Bde.
But in Canada? How many rounds down range before you have to replace the shocks/springs/axles/vehicles? It seems to me that you would have the same problem as the old Pack Howitzer and LG1 had/have and they would need to be replaced on a regular and rapid schedule.
FJAG
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Chris Pook said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of SP guns but only if they are sufficiently armoured to increase surviveability and tracked to increase mobility.
I'm generally not a fan of these large calibre "technicals" for one simple reason: The automotive system is the weak link in the chain. Trucks fail--whether for engine issues or stress fractures in the chassis or hydraulics--at a much higher rate than the guns do. If the prime mover of a towed gun fails then one simply replaces it with an ammo tractor and carries on. If an SP truck fails then the gun is out of action for as long as it takes to repair the truck.
Call me a curmudgeon, if you will, but there are a lot of ways we can make our artillery more effective without using glorified pick-up trucks. For example there are several wheeled SP guns (Sweden's Archer and Serbia's Nora B-52) that provide autoloaders and armoured protection allowing for a much enhanced dispersed deployment system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nora_B-52
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Artillery_System
What I'd really like to see the reserves get to replace at least half of the C3 batteries with rocket launchers like HIMARS - a battalion has three batteries with a total of 18 launchers plus various command and resupply vehicles. Conceivably one could allocate a two launcher troop to nine different units (add another 3-5 units for the headquarters battery) and pretty much re-assign many of our people to a useful role for a change.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M142_HIMARS
Which would at least offer a new and useful capability to the CAF. They're pricey but also have a low cost, short range practice missile so that one can get in some live fire training.
:cheers:
FJAG said:
It just so happens, some of the HIMARS for the Long Range Precision Rocket project were supposed to go to a few Primary Reserve units (one in each Div IIRC), with the bulk of the systems going to 4 GSR in Gagetown. Near as I can remember, the thinking was 4 GSR did not have the pers numbers to cover off all the potential tasks (including emerging STA ones, as well as those related to air defence), so needed the additional depth to Force Generate from the Reserves.
I did the range study for this, including use in areas like Meaford and Valcartier; it was viable with a practise rocket ( the M28A1)
The project was put on hold some time ago though.
Colin Parkinson
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FJAG said:
Which is why i suggest a mount that fits into the truck rear bed. truck breaks down, yank the gun and put it into another truck. The legs and pedestals could look goofy but can be done. The problem of course for Canada, is if your truck breaks down, you don't have another truck.....
Perhaps a 4 wheel trailer the mount fits onto as a backup plan? Also the mount could be deposited at a FOB and the truck used for other tasks.
