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CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

If that isn't the case I expect to see a vigorous defence of the training system in all of the other threads and comments when someone suggests the RCAF is struggling to produce enough of any aircrew occupations.
Failing at throughput is a different issue than failing at training itself.

Throughput can be dealt with by scaling infrastructure and instructors.

A failing training program needs an evaluation to see if it’s needing a few tweaks, or a total revamp.
 
How many of those simulators do we have or have direct access to? What types of simulators are they? Full motion, Desk etc. I bet not that many.
Six at least, 130J has a Level D full motion and an integrated procedures sim and the 147F has four, a level D full-motion sim, a twin level-D on static mounts that can be upgraded to full motion, a tactically-deployable Level C flight sim (comes in two 20TEU sea cans and an IMAX-grade gunnery simulator. All the Chinook sims and the Herc full-motion can operate real-time together fully integrated so that all crews can interact dynamically with each other as well as AI-driven generated tactical blue and red forces (as well as integrate into USAF and U.S. Army collaborative simulation environments. I would consider six simulators for two fleets to be NOT not many…
 
Six at least, 130J has a Level D full motion and an integrated procedures sim and the 147F has four, a level D full-motion sim, a twin level-D on static mounts that can be upgraded to full motion, a tactically-deployable Level C flight sim (comes in two 20TEU sea cans and an IMAX-grade gunnery simulator. All the Chinook sims and the Herc full-motion can operate real-time together fully integrated so that all crews can interact dynamically with each other as well as AI-driven generated tactical blue and red forces (as well as integrate into USAF and U.S. Army collaborative simulation environments. I would consider six simulators for two fleets to be NOT not many…
Plus the Griffon simulators, plus the Cyclone simulators, plus the 412 simulator in Portage, plus the Hornet simulators in both Bagotville and Cold Lake, plus the Kingfisher and (soon to be?) Cormorant simulators in Comox. Plus the existing Aurora sim in Greenwood.

Did I miss any?
 
Sure.

Point me to an airline pilot who is going to leave that for the RCAF.

Seriously.

Is the American programme designed to get people into the USAF etc? Or is it designed to get a body of people that can fly into uniform and are willing to put themselves under the jurisdicition of the UCJ?

In other words is it designed to find people to handle the 9 to 5 work or to find people who are volunteering to take orders during a designated emergency and do things that most civilians wouldn't do - like flying a 747 into a hot airport like Kabul or Kyiv? People that will fly the Civil Reserve Air Fleet?

Or people that are volunteering to handle air transport duties when they have time on their hands to take some of the load off the full-timers, freeing them up for other more rigorous duties - like sub-hunting, or rough field work etc?

People that are qualified to fly straight and level at high altitudes and land on civilian runways.
 
Plus the Griffon simulators, plus the Cyclone simulators, plus the 412 simulator in Portage, plus the Hornet simulators in both Bagotville and Cold Lake, plus the Kingfisher and (soon to be?) Cormorant simulators in Comox. Plus the existing Aurora sim in Greenwood.

Did I miss any?
I think you got them, SKT. My list was just the ones I knew were advanced grade Level D linked through HLA for full collaborative platform and environmental simulation, that I knew from first hand experience working with CAE during their initial development. 👍🏼
 
Is the American programme designed to get people into the USAF etc? Or is it designed to get a body of people that can fly into uniform and are willing to put themselves under the jurisdicition of the UCJ?

In other words is it designed to find people to handle the 9 to 5 work or to find people who are volunteering to take orders during a designated emergency and do things that most civilians wouldn't do - like flying a 747 into a hot airport like Kabul or Kyiv? People that will fly the Civil Reserve Air Fleet?

Or people that are volunteering to handle air transport duties when they have time on their hands to take some of the load off the full-timers, freeing them up for other more rigorous duties - like sub-hunting, or rough field work etc?

People that are qualified to fly straight and level at high altitudes and land on civilian runways.
Admittedly, I have to not met alot of Guard and USAF reserve aircrew, but every single one has been former Regular USAF that continued to flying part time. It looks like it is possible to join straight into those organizations- I just don’t know how common it is.
 
I think you got them, SKT. My list was just the ones I knew were advanced grade Level D linked through HLA for full collaborative platform and environmental simulation, that I knew from first hand experience working with CAE during their initial development. 👍🏼
The HLA thing is problematic with some of them. Level D is not.
 
The HLA thing is problematic with some of them. Level D is not.
I could see in a perfect world, CP-180 (wag at #) and CH-148 could talk to each other in a maritime ASW-like scenario, etc. and I’d like to think that the CF-355 (again 🤷🏻‍♂️) should link in with CH-147F, CC-130J and I’d hope aspirationally CH-146 via HLA since those fleets could conceivably all be operational in the same AO in the future.
 
I could see in a perfect world, CP-180 (wag at #) and CH-148 could talk to each other in a maritime ASW-like scenario, etc. and I’d like to think that the CF-355 (again 🤷🏻‍♂️) should link in with CH-147F, CC-130J and I’d hope aspirationally CH-146 via HLA since those fleets could conceivably all be operational in the same AO in the future.
It is supposed to be part of the specifications of every simulator we buy.

Whether that works in reality is another story.
 
Admittedly, I have to not met alot of Guard and USAF reserve aircrew, but every single one has been former Regular USAF that continued to flying part time. It looks like it is possible to join straight into those organizations- I just don’t know how common it is.
Do we have a Reserve structure that makes it easy for former Reg Force RCAF personnel to continue flying/maintaining part time? What would the cost/benefit analysis of setting up Reserve Squadrons at Pearson or Mirabel look like in comparison to some of the other options. It's been mentioned here before that RCAF pers leave for the greener pastures of civi work...but how can we avoid losing all that investment in training when our squadrons are typically placed far from where commercial airlines are operating? In the long run might not the cost in new infrastructure not be less than the lost personnel value?
 
It is supposed to be part of the specifications of every simulator we buy.

Whether that works in reality is another story.
The ‘dark-light blue’ side is where I have no insight…I too would think they should electronically lash up…but…
 
Do we have a Reserve structure that makes it easy for former Reg Force RCAF personnel to continue flying/maintaining part time? What would the cost/benefit analysis of setting up Reserve Squadrons at Pearson or Mirabel look like in comparison to some of the other options. It's been mentioned here before that RCAF pers leave for the greener pastures of civi work...but how can we avoid losing all that investment in training when our squadrons are typically placed far from where commercial airlines are operating? In the long run might not the cost in new infrastructure not be less than the lost personnel value?
Yes we do. It is very easy to continue to fly as a Reservist with the RCAF. The difference is that the Reservist will (in all cases except one) be part of a Reg F unit.
 
Yes we do. It is very easy to continue to fly as a Reservist with the RCAF. The difference is that the Reservist will (in all cases except one) be part of a Reg F unit.
I'm not suggesting that the process doesn't make it easy for a Reservist to continue to fly with the RCAF but rather questioning whether geography prevents a much greater number of former members from flying (or turning wrenches) with the RCAF.
 
I'm not suggesting that the process doesn't make it easy for a Reservist to continue to fly with the RCAF but rather questioning whether geography prevents a much greater number of former members from flying (or turning wrenches) with the RCAF.
That is a hard question to answer. In the fighter force- probably yes. I can’t see it as much of a barrier in the rest of the fleets.
 
Being shot at in a sim with MANPADS and hearing “guns guns guns” over the ICS during a mission in Syria were not the same experience for me; YMMV.

“Only restricted by the limits of the person writing the programme”.

How about funding?
yet if your reaction isn't exactly the same in both cases you are dead. Students who start their training with simulators are far easier to convince that they are working with reality in the sim. They don't enter with a pre-conceived bias. Finances are always a problem but the discussion is focusing upon solutions so one solution is to provide funding to create realistic sim. runs so as to lessen the hours required in the real air frame to gain qualification. Good. Part of the contract with Boeing probably includes simulators and they will be state of the art. Australia, Great Britain and all other current users undoubtedly have programmes on the shelf that we can use as well. Purchasing an extra 4 air frames to dedicate to training would also help. 16 is probably very tight and really doesn't give much breathing space for training. As for pilots, start training from the ground up using local facilities whilst your trainees complete their education. Make better use of our cadet programme. There are dozens of airports across Canada that would gladly accept the GOC's money and produce a qualified multi-engined IFR officer candidate at the same time a university or college produces a graduate.
As for reserves, we don't have the aircraft to generate a reserve squadron let alone allow pilots to maintain currency so either we buy more or say sayonara to that idea. imho. But nothing is going to work well until our school bias is changed. Young people won't apply to the military if their peers and their profs and their parents are all telling them that they should grow flowers and write video games instead; especially when the GOC treats the military with total disdain.
 
How many more are currently type certified? I figured there was one or two that had flown it.
But wanted discussion into the subject.

No you flat out said “no one in the CAF has flown the P8”. You made a statement and that statement was not correct.

Currently, there are RCAF LRP aircrew with more than 1 of our allies P-8 fleets. I’m not going to say how many, where, or their trades on here.
 
Plus the Griffon simulators, plus the Cyclone simulators, plus the 412 simulator in Portage, plus the Hornet simulators in both Bagotville and Cold Lake, plus the Kingfisher and (soon to be?) Cormorant simulators in Comox. Plus the existing Aurora sim in Greenwood.

Did I miss any?

Block 4 PCTs in ZX and QQ for Tac tube, and the CPT and FFS for flight deck types in ZX.
 
Are the current training and currency requirements too restrictive? Is it something that actually required, or is it a risk adverse CAF requirement?

They have been relaxed some, where possible, since I’ve been with the fleet. Is more possible? I don’t think so, not without negatively impacting safety and proficiency.

I'm not suggesting I know for sure, but is it something people have seriously considered, rather that throw out as a reason things can't change?

It’s been discussed numerous times and the fleet talks about these things are regularly scheduled STDs and Trg conferences/working groups with LRP SET, the CAG, etc. The most recent one zi took part in was last summer, with all trades at the table for discussions.

I'm not suggesting people outside have all the answers. I'm suggesting that people too close to a problem tend to have a myopic view of solutions....


That wasn't the point, the point was to highlight the myopic view people too close to an issue tend to take.

Valid point. I’m not not sure the points being raised here by various fleet flyers are defending the status quo as much as defending the need for high standards and return on investment.

It was a slightly hyperbolic statement about the state of training in the RCAF. It hasn't completely failed, but it does certainly seem to be failing at getting enough people through quickly enought.

If that isn't the case I expect to see a vigorous defence of the training system in all of the other threads and comments when someone suggests the RCAF is struggling to produce enough of any aircrew occupations.

The aircrew training system isn’t failing, it’s under-resourced. Funding is the key to that in several forms.
 
The ‘dark-light blue’ side is where I have no insight…I too would think they should electronically lash up…but…

MAG could improve the way out best crew sims are capable of linking together and with Allies. Having said that, some sig improvements have been made in ability to join multi-national SIMEXs.
 
Admittedly, I have to not met alot of Guard and USAF reserve aircrew, but every single one has been former Regular USAF that continued to flying part time. It looks like it is possible to join straight into those organizations- I just don’t know how common it is.
Regular is a misnomer down here, as a large segment of officers are not Regulars per say (the whole # controlled by Congress thing) so you will have Active Duty Reservists who are effectively the same as Regulars for day to day stuff, but they don't have a Regular Commissions, and where commissioned into the USAFR. (it is a larger mess in the Army if that helps... generally only folks who go to Military Colleges get Regular Commissions, a few outliers, like the Citadel exist though, everyone else gets a Reserve Commission, and needs to apply to be a Regular - but again the whole # limits mean that only some get accepted)

I know a few folks who joined the Air Guard in College and became pilots - I don't have a clue how common it is, as the majority of folks I have met joined the Air Guard or Reserve entities after being in on Active Duty.

To me it is really an irrelevant issue for Canada, as unless your planning on scaling back the Regular Force dramatically, the airframe numbers you have don't make having a significant Res flying component, beyond what you already have with the former Reg's
 
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