Destroyers vs Frigates. Ship Classification Discussion

[Underway]

This comes up a lot. How are ships classified. So I have cracked the code (sort of) and present to everyone STANAG 1166 MAROPS.

Its NATO's ship designation/classification system.

So destroyer vs frigate.



You can see here that ship tonnage does not matter. Oddly enough length matters though its vague (about 85-140m). But the ships ROLE/TASKS matter the most.

So looking at Canadian Warships we have

River Class Destroyer: DDGH. Major surface combatant in range of about 95-140m. Whole general mission is to conduct operations with strike, ASW and amphib forces, and to perform screening and convoy duties. Fitted with one or more force guided missile systems (NSM, Tomahawk). Fitted with a flight deck with a primary mission of operating and maintaining helicopters.

Halifax Class: FFH. Surface combatant in the size range of 75-150m, fitted primarily to fulfil and ASW role. Generally has lighter surface armament than DD (57mm vs 127mm, lighter Anti Ship missile loadout). Fitted with a flight deck with a primary mission of operating and maintaining helicopters.

You can see here where the differentiation in classification goes. And why they chose destroyer for the River Class. It clearly checks all the destroyer boxes, even if it might be underserved in the VLS category in comparison with other allied destroyers.
But you can also see where other countries may interpret these standards differently.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Most importantly

 

[Czech_pivo]

This comes up a lot. How are ships classified. So I have cracked the code (sort of) and present to everyone STANAG 1166 MAROPS.

Its NATO's ship designation/classification system.

So destroyer vs frigate.

View attachment 92044

You can see here that ship tonnage does not matter. Oddly enough length matters though its vague (about 85-140m). But the ships ROLE/TASKS matter the most.

So looking at Canadian Warships we have

River Class Destroyer: DDGH. Major surface combatant in range of about 95-140m. Whole general mission is to conduct operations with strike, ASW and amphib forces, and to perform screening and convoy duties. Fitted with one or more force guided missile systems (NSM, Tomahawk). Fitted with a flight deck with a primary mission of operating and maintaining helicopters.

Halifax Class: FFH. Surface combatant in the size range of 75-150m, fitted primarily to fulfil and ASW role. Generally has lighter surface armament than DD (57mm vs 127mm, lighter Anti Ship missile loadout). Fitted with a flight deck with a primary mission of operating and maintaining helicopters.

You can see here where the differentiation in classification goes. And why they chose destroyer for the River Class. It clearly checks all the destroyer boxes, even if it might be underserved in the VLS category in comparison with other allied destroyers.
But you can also see where other countries may interpret these standards differently.

This is very helpful. much appreciated.
Looking ahead, to our potential acquiring of a dozen Corvettes. Do you think, based on what you've read/heard so far, that they would be FFLG or FFL?

Thanks!

 

[Underway]

Probably FFL. Its a much broader category. However if SM-6 missiles are going to be standard then FFLG is probably appropriate.

G: A unit equipped with one or more force guided missile systems. These include surface-to-surface (SSM) surface-to-air (SAM), underwater-to-surface (USM) and surface-to-underwater (SUM) systems. Note: A force weapon contributes to the overall offensive and/or defensive posture of a force and usually refers to missiles with a range in excess of 20 miles.

Basically if you can only defend yourself with it or hit things really close to yourself the system its not a force system.

 

[OldSolduer]

Ship shoot missile. Thing far away go !!

Thag is happy

 

[Underway]

Ship shoot missile. Thing far away go !!

Thag is happy

I was hoping you in particular saw this thread. I laid out a trail of red crayons for you to follow...

 

[Navy_Pete]

We did specifically choose the T26 platform though, which is optimized for ASW so in general, best not to really think about the designation much as it's pretty arbitrary.

NWOs trying to get used to no CPP or bridgewing doors is going to be entertaining anyway.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

We did specifically choose the T26 platform though, which is optimized for ASW so in general, best not to really think about the designation much as it's pretty arbitrary.

NWOs trying to get used to no CPP or bridgewing doors is going to be entertaining anyway.

No bridgewing doors eh?

Guess the bridge is going to become piss jug alley!

 

[OldSolduer]

Thag

I was hoping you in particular saw this thread. I laid out a trail of red crayons for you to follow...

like red crayon.....

Seriously this is a great education on the RCN.

 

[Furniture]

We did specifically choose the T26 platform though, which is optimized for ASW so in general, best not to really think about the designation much as it's pretty arbitrary.

NWOs trying to get used to no CPP or bridgewing doors is going to be entertaining anyway.

All the renderings I have seen have bridge wings, so I'm guessing there are doors to get out to the wings.

If there aren't bridge wings, or easy access to the upper decks, it creates an issue for Met to be able to do observations for flying.

 

[Navy_Pete]

All the renderings I have seen have bridge wings, so I'm guessing there are doors to get out to the wings.

If there aren't bridge wings, or easy access to the upper decks, it creates an issue for Met to be able to do observations for flying.

Sorry, I meant from the bridge directly. There are doors, but you have to go back a section and go through an airlock, where the bridge generally has no doors or windows that open so you can maintain the citadel (and not try and cool the entire Mediteranean/Red Sea/Arabian Sea with a few small bridge KUs).

Occasionally someone sees that and blows a gasket but so far the fact that it's a really expensive design change, and also dumb AF has led to sanity prevailing.

Never say never, but I think the bridge doors onto the bridge wing, which is the bane of EOs getting shat upon for the bridges being hot/humid, will go away as bridge dwellers adapt to the new reality.

 

[OldSolduer]

away as bridge dwellers adapt to the new reality.

No under the bridge dwellers??

 

[Navy_Pete]

No under the bridge dwellers??

lol, that would probably be MSED; most work happens below the waterline, and it usually freaked people out when I went up to the bridge (usually it was bad news for the captain). I made a point of starting to go up a few times a day to say hi and see daylight so they would calm down.

 

[Underway]

Sorry, I meant from the bridge directly. There are doors, but you have to go back a section and go through an airlock, where the bridge generally has no doors or windows that open so you can maintain the citadel (and not try and cool the entire Mediteranean/Red Sea/Arabian Sea with a few small bridge KUs).

Occasionally someone sees that and blows a gasket but so far the fact that it's a really expensive design change, and also dumb AF has led to sanity prevailing.

Never say never, but I think the bridge doors onto the bridge wing, which is the bane of EOs getting shat upon for the bridges being hot/humid, will go away as bridge dwellers adapt to the new reality.

How am I supposed to check if we're clear to port or stbd when altering without running outside. Or person overboard, or confirm boat launch safety.
I guess I'll have to use the cameras for that now. Curse you technology answers!

My main happiness with this is that the bridge is now officially a proper secure processing space and people won't be randomly coming up with cell phones to take images or make phone calls.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Do sailors normally need permission to enter the bridge?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I would say yes. My Instructions to the OOW were specific, and I know it was in many other C.O.'s : "The bridge, Ops Room and MCR are places of duty. Only watchkeepers or personnel requiring to attend there in order to carry out their tasks may come into these spaces. Any other personnel wishing to enter them must first obtain permission from the OOW, ORO or EOOW, as the case may be"

 

[Navy_Pete]

I would say yes. My Instructions to the OOW were specific, and I know it was in many other C.O.'s : "The bridge, Ops Room and MCR are places of duty. Only watchkeepers or personnel requiring to attend there in order to carry out their tasks may come into these spaces. Any other personnel wishing to enter them must first obtain permission from the OOW, ORO or EOOW, as the case may be"

I've never run into that in 20 years, but I would also say people don't wander in any of those spaces for fun, so it's kind of self sustaining. I've seen people that didn't need to be there kicked out when things were on the go and there were too many onlookers (like people trying to hang around the bridge during a harbour entrance or something), but people normally only asked permission to be there to watch something and were usually fine if they stayed out of the way.

 

[Underway]

I would agree with that. Its assumed that you are usually there for a duty reason first without pestering the OOW/2OOW. And 90% of the time that's the case. If you didn't have a duty reason to be there (just wanted to see the crazy storm or something) you just hid in the back by the EO/IR control system and didn't say anything, looking out the window. Looky loos that got in the way were normally chased off the bridge.

That being said with no bridge wing access most people will not bother going there now, and will detour to the exits that lead to the bridge wing to get their sight seeing done or better yet the deck where the RAM is going to be located amidships.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Maybe it was more common in the days of the steamers (my era). The open air bridges, and small enclosed ones for those ships that had them, were pretty small and crammed spaces, so were the old ops room - and I said "MCR" for people to understand, because in reality, my instructions said Engine Room since there was no such place as an MCR in those days.

 

[Furniture]

I've never run into that in 20 years, but I would also say people don't wander in any of those spaces for fun, so it's kind of self sustaining. I've seen people that didn't need to be there kicked out when things were on the go and there were too many onlookers (like people trying to hang around the bridge during a harbour entrance or something), but people normally only asked permission to be there to watch something and were usually fine if they stayed out of the way.

As someone who spent a lot of time on the bridge, I have definitely seen people kicked off the bridge for various reasons, including just being there. That said, often the person was being disruptive in some way. Most operations spaces are marked "Authorized Personnel Only", even if it's not strictly enforced.

I would kick randos out of the chart shack anytime I saw someone not Met or Nav there, apart from Coxn, XO, CO, STG.