Does Canada Need Redundant Infrastructure? Roads, rail, etc. (Split from 2025 U.S. - Venezuela conflict)

[Altair]

By Keystone to Cushing, Oklahoma.
From Cushing to the Gulf by way of Keystone and Seaway.

Unlike Canada America maintains options.

We build one railway. We build one highway. We build one pipeline.

They build grids.


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To be fair to railways and highways, our geography doesn't have a lot of good reasons to build north south.

 

[Kirkhill]

To be fair to railways and highways, our geography doesn't have a lot of good reasons to build north south.

Actually that is wrong.

John A. MacDonald expressly built the east-west railway and his National Policy of tariffs expressly to combat what he saw as the natural north-south flow.

You can still see it today.

Vancouver to San Diego is one corridor
Edmonton to Houston is another
Winnipeg to Minneapolis and Chicago
Montreal to New York
Halifax to the Boston States
Windsor to Detroit

 

[Altair]

Actually that is wrong.

John A. MacDonald expressly built the east-west railway and his National Policy of tariffs expressly to combat what he saw as the natural north-south flow.

You can still see it today.

Vancouver to San Diego is one corridor
Edmonton to Houston is another
Winnipeg to Minneapolis and Chicago
Montreal to New York
Halifax to the Boston States
Windsor to Detroit

I meant north south within Canada.

Everything here is within 200km of the US border, except Edmonton because they are special,and Churchill because they are even more special. why would we build north south? What would you want to see?Montreal Chibougamau? Toronto Cochrane? Regina La Ronge? Vancouver Hazeltown?


And to build more east west is more or less redundant.

 

[Kirkhill]

I meant north south within Canada.

Everything here is within 200km of the US border, except Edmonton because they are special,and Churchill because they are even more special. why would we build north south? What would you want to see?Montreal Chibougamau? Toronto Cochrane? Regina La Ronge? Vancouver Hazeltown?


And to build more east west is more or less redundant.

Until it comes to getting things onto the oceans when the unions go on strike, landslides break the tracks, Winnipeg gets flooded, the US closes the borders to rail transport into the maritimes or oil and gas into the maritimes, Ontario and Quebec. Or BC and Quebec decide they don't want to play by everybody else's rules.

No. Absolutely no need for redundancy. We're resilient enough.

PS - for how are we fighting with the natives if we only want the 200 km strip along the border in any event?

 

[Altair]

Until it comes to getting things onto the oceans when the unions go on strike, landslides break the tracks, Winnipeg gets flooded, the US closes the borders to rail transport into the maritimes or oil and gas into the maritimes, Ontario and Quebec. Or BC and Quebec decide they don't want to play by everybody else's rules.

No. Absolutely no need for redundancy. We're resilient enough.

PS - for how are we fighting with the natives if we only want the 200 km strip along the border in any event?

You want a second trans Canada highway, built through the Canadian shield on the off chance of a landslide?

This Canadian shield? You know a fun fact? The biggest city in the Canadian shield is Sudbury, pop 200k.

It's that hard to build on and in.

 

[Kirkhill]

You want a second trans Canada highway, built through the Canadian shield on the off chance of a landslide?

This Canadian shield? You know a fun fact? The biggest city in the Canadian shield is Sudbury, pop 200k.

It's that hard to build on and in.

You mean like the one through Hearst?

The bottleneck is between Thunder Bay and Winnipeg. Basically the Ring of Fire country.

 

[The Bread Guy]

You mean like the one through Hearst?

The bottleneck is between Thunder Bay and Winnipeg. Basically the Ring of Fire country.

More like between Thunder Bay and the Soo - more, specifically, Google “Nipigon bridge” for the exact spot. Interesting times the last time it was closed.

 

[lenaitch]

More like between Thunder Bay and the Soo - more, specifically, Google “Nipigon bridge” for the exact spot. Interesting times the last time it was closed.

There are two places in Ontario where there is only one roadway connecting east and west Canada; from the Manitoba border to just east of Kenora (where Hwys 71 and 11 are an alternate), and from Thunder Bay to Nipigon. The government's answer is to twin both of these sections - slowly.

Some people have advocated for a second 'greenfield' highway. It would go through the wilderness and connect no new communities.

Redundancy has a cost that the taxpayer would have to bear.

 

[Altair]

There are two places in Ontario where there is only one roadway connecting east and west Canada; from the Manitoba border to just east of Kenora (where Hwys 71 and 11 are an alternate), and from Thunder Bay to Nipigon. The government's answer is to twin both of these sections - slowly.

Some people have advocated for a second 'greenfield' highway. It would go through the wilderness and connect no new communities.

Redundancy has a cost that the taxpayer would have to bear.

While redundancy has its uses by definition it's the opposite of efficiency.

Back to the crux of the issue, the USA builds grids because of population centers and geography.

Canada builds east west because of the 200km band close to the US border where most Canadians live, 90 percent I think,and doesn't doesn't do a lot in terms of redundancy because it's inefficient.

Like you said, we could build an addition highway but it would be a highway to nowhere serving no one. I've driven through that area 10ish times. It's already a highway through nowhere. And I say this as someone who had to spend a night in Wawa on a PLM

 

[Kirkhill]

Unless you intend for the State to build redundancies and operate them at a loss, there is little economic reason for companies to support it. Individual railways used to have multiple lines going to and from the same places - virtually all gone unless there is existing enroute revenue. With railways primarily focused on long-haul bulk traffic, having more than one way to get from Winnipeg to Montreal (each) makes no economic sense. Shareholders ya know.

The argument would carry more weight if we hadn't built the first railway before there were cities or settlers and the target destination of BC only had a population of 36,247 (25,661 First Nations individuals, 8,576 Brits and other Europeans as well as 1,548 Asians).

A lot of infrastructure has been built on spec. Some gambles were lost.

The Million Dollar Bridge over the Copper River in Alaska comes to my mind.
Along with the original railway to Port Nelson.
Maybe the Trent-Severn Canal, opened just in time for Henry Ford to start mass producing automobiles.
Other infrastructure was built to serve one purpose then picked up by someone else and repurposed.

That would be true of most development.
The US Highway grid would be the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Furniture]

While redundancy has its uses by definition it's the opposite of efficiency.

Back to the crux of the issue, the USA builds grids because of population centers and geography.

Canada builds east west because of the 200km band close to the US border where most Canadians live, 90 percent I think,and doesn't doesn't do a lot in terms of redundancy because it's inefficient.

Like you said, we could build an addition highway but it would be a highway to nowhere serving no one. I've driven through that area 10ish times. It's already a highway through nowhere. And I say this as someone who had to spend a night in Wawa on a PLM

It would serve no-one, unless it was built to be faster and more efficient for trucking. Highway 17 is beautiful in places, but a more modern twinned version would be far better for commerce and tourism.

 

[lenaitch]

had to spend a night in Wawa

Lived there for three years. Loved every minute of it.

It would serve no-one, unless it was built to be faster and more efficient for trucking. Highway 17 is beautiful in places, but a more modern twinned version would be far better for commerce and tourism.

The traffic counts on both 11 or 17 aren't spectacular; although more commercial traffic does shift to Hwy 11 in the winter.

Every winter is a challenge, but this year has been particularly disruptive. Highway alignment is only part of it. Maintenance standards, CMV licencing standards and fleet operating practices are also big contributors.

As a very (very) rough gauge, Ontario builds about 25 km of greenfield highway every 3 years or so. That is obviously preceded by years of surveying, design and land acquisition. Right now they are slowly pushing a divided 17 up the Ottawa Valley and extending Hwy 69/400 towards Sudbury. FN land negotiations can bog things down.

Given the historic amount they can build, and given the amount of highway to do to create an end-to-end twinned highway, do the math. None of us would live to see it and likely our kids wouldn't either.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

There are two places in Ontario where there is only one roadway connecting east and west Canada; from the Manitoba border to just east of Kenora (where Hwys 71 and 11 are an alternate), and from Thunder Bay to Nipigon. The government's answer is to twin both of these sections - slowly.

Some people have advocated for a second 'greenfield' highway. It would go through the wilderness and connect no new communities.

Redundancy has a cost that the taxpayer would have to bear.

Ontario has not given a F*** about it's North or anywhere slightly north, west or east of Toronto, so not surprising.

 

[Furniture]

Lived there for three years. Loved every minute of it.


The traffic counts on both 11 or 17 aren't spectacular; although more commercial traffic does shift to Hwy 11 in the winter.

Every winter is a challenge, but this year has been particularly disruptive. Highway alignment is only part of it. Maintenance standards, CMV licencing standards and fleet operating practices are also big contributors.

As a very (very) rough gauge, Ontario builds about 25 km of greenfield highway every 3 years or so. That is obviously preceded by years of surveying, design and land acquisition. Right now they are slowly pushing a divided 17 up the Ottawa Valley and extending Hwy 69/400 towards Sudbury. FN land negotiations can bog things down.

Given the historic amount they can build, and given the amount of highway to do to create an end-to-end twinned highway, do the math. None of us would live to see it and likely our kids wouldn't either.

More can be done than is being done. Pretending twinning the 17 is impossible in my lifetime is just accepting the status quo.

If Canada is going to use 1.5% GDP for national defence related national infrastructure, twinning the 17 and/or 11 is entirely reasonable and possible.

 

[OldSolduer]

More can be done than is being done. Pretending twinning the 17 is impossible in my lifetime is just accepting the status quo.

If Canada is going to use 1.5% GDP for national defence related national infrastructure, twinning the 17 and/or 11 is entirely reasonable and possible.

The only reason highways are

not twinned is because we are fucking cheapskates that want everything but the bill.

 

[YZT580]

It would serve no-one, unless it was built to be faster and more efficient for trucking. Highway 17 is beautiful in places, but a more modern twinned version would be far better for commerce and tourism.

Amen to that. Spent hours at less than 50 mph following a Winnebago vacation convoy of about 30 trailers around Marathon.

 

[lenaitch]

More can be done than is being done. Pretending twinning the 17 is impossible in my lifetime is just accepting the status quo.

If Canada is going to use 1.5% GDP for national defence related national infrastructure, twinning the 17 and/or 11 is entirely reasonable and possible.

If you have a way to twin about 1900 km of highway (Renfrew to Kenora) with the workforce and economy we have inside a lifetime I'm sure they would love to hear from you. New highway 413 in southern Ontario will be 52 km long and take at least a decade for about $10Bn.

 

[Altair]

Lived there for three years. Loved every minute of it.

It had food, it had a bed, I wont complain too much.

Didn't hold a candle to Marathon though.

 

[McG]

Maybe all the discussion on Canadian highways & railways belongs in a thread about Canada?

 

[lenaitch]

Maybe all the discussion on Canadian highways & railways belongs in a thread about Canada?

Ya. Caught up in the discussion while watching the Leafs lose.