Engineers are just Pioneer wannabees.... From: Combat Support Company?

[exsapper]

Let's remember - Engineers are just Pioneer wannabees....

Dave

Former Pnr Pl Comd

you make me laugh Engineers are over qualified pioneers,, when was the last time you guys conducted Breaching look at youtube.com and see the video that 2 CER put together on breaching and if you tell me pioneers did that then i will call you a liar. or IED disarming EOD disposal or UXO and real mine clearance, the truth is you guys were dangerous, engineers wanna-bees. that lacked the proper training to be taken serious.  but there is a need for you as long as the training is conducted by qualified personel and the only qualified personnel are the engineers that will properly teach you folk how to conduct your basic ENGINEER related tasks!! which the last time i read was your primary role to have the engineer capability with in the battalions. You are right they will prob be back but not because they are needed but because their is not enough engineers to go around, the CER's are half the size's of the battalions and they support all 3 battalions and the armour regiments, so the same dudes that deployed with the 1st battalion will deploy with the 3rd a yr later, that is why they will be back and no other reason.  But that will be great cause people will finally see infanteers do manual labor filling sand bags and running wire, be it the wanna be engineers. it will still be good to see.

 

[Franko]

Whoa there!

His post was in jest....again, I suggest that you get used to the posting style of the members here before you blow a gasket       

Regards

 

[Gunner98]

For those interested. Last week my CO gave us a bit of good info for all those old mortar,pioneer,and maybe even Tow guys. He had attended some Army transformation meetings recently... I am not going to say to much more because I am not sure if it is public knowledge yet.

Hey Patrolman - Is this public knowledge yet, or are you and your CO just spreading rumors.  Tell us more!

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Why is it that during one of the engineer camps we pioneers attend we handed their asses to them.  Tasks were razor wire fences, low wire, abates, etc.  Its because we focus on the smaller stuff while the engineers handle the bigger fish.  Dangerous eh.  I could say the same about watching what SOME engineers have done.  As you may have witnessed what SOME pioneers have done.  As far as your training points, can you actually tell me engineers that haven't done a particular task for a long time wouldn't need refresher training.  Its your jealousy that causes more hardship when you dismiss the relevance we pioneers have and can do to help reduce your work load.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

you make me laugh Engineers are over qualified pioneers,, blah blah blah

Nice start.  :

 

[super26]

I seem to remember on my Pioneer Course we did wire breaches,boobytraps,construction of obstacles and all that good stuff. The same stuff the engineers did any time we where on excercise. Thye just had more pers than a pioneer pl.

 

[aesop081]

I seem to remember on my Pioneer Course we did wire breaches,boobytraps,construction of obstacles and all that good stuff. The same stuff the engineers did any time we where on excercise. Thye just had more pers than a pioneer pl.

And of course on your pioneer course you did alot of MGB, EWBB,ACROW, MFR/MFB, water supply, BBE opeation, Bridge design, route classification, Bridge classification, Reserve demolitions, CL60 operation, air photo interpretation, soils analysis.......etc....etc.....etc.....

There is alot more to being a 043 than what pioneers do.  Dont assume because we share some training that the only difference is numbers of pers.  Both have some common training, both serve different purposes.

CHIMO

Why is it that during one of the engineer camps we pioneers attend we handed their asses to them.  Tasks were razor wire fences, low wire, abates, etc. 

IIRC that was  EX SAPPER STAKES in 1998......I was on that and the Pioneer team put up a good fight and did well.....no shame in that. 

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

My point is this.  Engineers do it all.  Pioneers take some of what the Engineers do and stick to that only, thereby being able to concentrate wholly on those smaller tasks and doing them well.  Pioneers can reduce the work load of the Engineers and do those tasks SAFELY.

 

[Kat Stevens]

My point is this.  Engineers do it all.  Pioneers take some of what the Engineers do and stick to that only, thereby being able to concentrate wholly on those smaller tasks and doing them well.  Pioneers can reduce the work load of the Engineers and do those tasks SAFELY.

Marty Pearcey would disagree.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Well I suppose I could through up names without any reference or back story as well.

 

[Kat Stevens]

As you like it:

Exercise Cox's Folly in Suffield.  Armoured Engineer Troop of 1 CER are leaguered up at end-ex.  Pioneers of _ VP are tasked to do a BIP on an unexploded piece of ordnance.  Nobody checks the safety template.  Pearcey goes to the side of his M113 to take a leak, the shot is fired.  Net result?  Marty medevac'd with about a pound and a half of shrapnel in him, and about half his blood left on the ground.  Good enough?  by the way, what is the min  safety distance for BIP of UXO, and why?  I'd appreciate your expertise on that.

 

[brihard]

As you like it:

Exercise Cox's Folly in Suffield.  Armoured Engineer Troop of 1 CER are leaguered up at end-ex.  Pioneers of _ VP are tasked to do a BIP on an unexploded piece of ordnance.  Nobody checks the safety template.  Pearcey goes to the side of his M113 to take a leak, the shot is fired.  Net result?  Marty medevac'd with about a pound and a half of shrapnel in him, and about half his blood left on the ground.  Good enough?  by the way, what is the min  safety distance for BIP of UXO, and why?  I'd appreciate your expertise on that.

Perhaps I'm out of my arcs here, but I suspect that at one point or another members of most every trade have made fatal or potentially fatal mistakes. If that individual/team was properly trained how to conduct the task in question and failed to so in a proper and safe manner, that's a mistake shared by the individuals and particularly the immediately present leadership- not necessarily the trade or specialty to which they belonged. To slam the pioneers based on this one story might not be fair treatment. If, and only if checking the safety templates is not part of their training should the pioneer specialty be blamed for not endeavouring to incorporate what they ought to know is necessary training. Ultimately this sounds like a simple human error.

I'm only going from the evidence at hand though. Let me know if I'm out of order.

 

[McG]

IED disarming

If the average Engr is out doing this, he is dangerous.  Only the IEDD guys should be going anywhere near an IED.  Only they have the training & only they have the equipment.

Pioneers of _ VP are tasked to do a BIP on an unexploded piece of ordnance.

Is CMD a Pnr task?

 

[Infanteer]

Uhh...is this really worth the time and effort of turning into a pissing match?

 

[bilton090]

If the average Engr is out doing this, he is dangerous.  Only the IEDD guys should be going anywhere near an IED.  Only they have the training & only they have the equipment.
Is CMD a Pnr task?

         A combat Eng. can do a Pnr's job but a Pnr can't do a Eng job. The average Eng. T.Q 5, Cpl can do IED,UXO & Mine clearance,
  where do you think they get the per's for the IED team ?
          Besides Eng. do Hvy. Eqpt. jobs as well !
          In Pet. when we had the Airborne Field Tp. we could do Infanteer jobs as well !
A cook at Mc D's is the same as a cook at a 5 star place ?

 

[bilton090]

  MCG what are you talking about, it's not hard to BIP it, ( blow in place ).
          IT's funny when people start talking about things they know not a thing about ! A little bit of Info. can being frot a big bang !
                                   
                                                                    :warstory:

 

[Fishbone Jones]

OK. You guys should know better, at least most of you

exsapper,

Get a grip. Read the forums, guidelines, etc. Don't come here running your gate over what YOU percieve as a personal slight, that no one else has a problem seeing as sarcastic humour. Next time you do a drive by troll, start a flame war, then leave to watch it fester, you'll get an introduction to the other thing you didn't bother reading about. The Warning System.

This is all done. Back to your swing sets.

 

[McG]

The average Eng. T.Q 5, Cpl can do IED,UXO & Mine clearance,

Wrong.  After TQ5 or Sect 2ic Crse, the Cbt Engr can do CMD (BIP conventional munitions) and mine clearance.  The Cbt Engr cannot do IEDD with out the HC.

where do you think they get the per's for the IED team ?

The EOD teams are guys with HB or HC quals (and it is the HC guys we need in Afghanistan).  Half the teams right now are Navy divers because there are not enough Engineers qualified to do this safely & properly.

MCG what are you talking about, it's not hard to BIP it, ( blow in place ).

I never said a BIP was hard.  However, that is not what we do with IEDs. 

IT's funny when people start talking about things they know not a thing about ! 

I know you've been around but you might want to be carefull on suggesting ignorance in others when you clearly are out of the loop on CF regulations regarding IEDD operations.  I also suspect you are unclear on what the EOD team does on an IEDD call.  But, if you want to give the EOD tm a good laugh, go suggest that the initial reaction to an unexploded & unidentified IED should be a manual approach by Spr Bloggins with his prodder.  I know the EOD tm certainly would not do it like that.