EX Stalwart Guardian

[Sh0rtbUs]

well, Im signed up for my DP1 this summer, and then from August 21-29 I get to head up to CFB Petewawa and participate in the Exercise.

I was just wondering if anyone had any info on it from a first person perspective, rather than what the website and posters say.

Since I‘ll have my DP1, what can i take part in, and what will I miss?

 

[portcullisguy]

Shortbus, I did Stalwart Guardian last year, and although I had fun, it seemed apparent why the other troops began referring to it as "fat camp 03".

They fed us IMPs for the entire time, and we had no "fresh" until the End Ex BBQ (and I must admit, the BBQ was quite good, but that‘s a long time to wait for fresh BBQ steak).

Right away I could tell the purpose of this annual milcon was not to exercise the troops at your and my level. It‘s for the higher formation officers to learn how to work with other groupings, units, etc., and to exercise their skills and training at the higher level.

It was very organized, but almost too much so.

For example, during the live-fire ambush, which involved each company from each "battalion" (the three LFCA brigades were reduced to Light Infantry Bn‘s for the ex, as that‘s all they really numbered, and each regiment became either a platoon or company, or in some cases, a section), they couldn‘t do everybody all at once, so over three days each platoon took turns humping out behind one of the ranges (quite far I might add), in order to set up at pre-designated fire positions, completely removing the platoon commander and the gun det commander from the ambush equation, which I don‘t think would happen in "real life". You will learn on a later course that the platoon‘s C6 is THE most important asset at the platoon level, and even the det commander can overrule (or at least "suggest") the proper siting of the C6 gun over the pl commander‘s initial placement. It‘s that vital.

Each of the phases of the ex seemed to take forever, and although we were supposed to be tactical after the 2nd or 3rd day, there must be a new "yellow school bus" camoflauge in the CF, because that‘s what we rode around in all week.

The company-level FIBUA assault with Simunition was pretty fun. It‘s just bad luck that I ended up in a reserve section and didn‘t get in on the shooting.

The helicopter rides were a blast, and the drills a cinch to learn.

What seemed pretty silly from a troopies perspective was the company-level live fire defensive, which involved armour and the recce platoon, as well as engineers. We kept shooting at these high-tech pop-up targets that always appeared in the same place, of course. The left and right arcs weren‘t as restrained as on the ambush, but still it felt kinda silly after about 3 or 4 mags emptied into the same few pop-ups. Our C6 kept having problems (I was the #2, although I had never been trained on the C6 in SF role at the time), and we were at the end of the week and really sort of had it with the whole affair by then.

I‘m sure someone got a few gongs for organizing the whole shebang, but it wasn‘t any fresh-faced pte from the 48th, that much I know!

But, still, it‘s fun to do a big ex like that, and it‘s a chance to put your skills and knowledge to use that you just learned on your courses. I enjoyed finally meeting the lads from my unit, and working with different folks.

Ok, that was a long one! Need to know more, pm me...

 

[48Highlander]

I was the det commander for our platoon at the ambush site, and while the platoon commander may or may not have gotten to site his weapons, the location where the C6 was placed was pretty rediculous. I certainly had no say in the matter, and in effect it ended up being employed as just another C7. From what I saw, the majority of troops saw the livefire ambush as a big joke, although I‘m sure it at least had some training value for the officers. However I‘m assuming the whle idea behind using live rounds was to provide more realism and better training for the troops, so in that sense, it was a failiure.

 

[hhour48]

portcullisguy:
what do you mean "no fresh until the BBQ"?
Aren‘t you forgetting all the pizza, fat boy?

On the serious note, I was a section 2IC during Ex SG 03, and all the fire control orders I‘ve heard was "rapid rate, slow rate, stop". There was no opportunity to designate targets, or issue GRITs at all during that "ambush". The majority of firing positions had only one target to fire at, and some of them didn‘t even come up, so they ended up firing at sandbags.

Also, the amount of ammo alotted for the "ambush" was ridiculous: 1x30rnd mag. Although that ain‘t so bad when you consider the fact that you‘re firing at a pile of sandbags...

Also, I have never heard anyone complain so much about GETTING showers (as opposed to NOT getting them).

For me, the best part of the ex was going away with the 3 AB COY for a couple of days. I hope this year it‘s going to be kept together for the entire ex and do some tactical trg.

 

[kurokaze]

At least you guys weren‘t artillery in last year‘s milcon.....

Did you infantry types even know we were there until the last day??

This year should be better though, we‘re running the artillery portion. Too bad I don‘t think I‘ll be able to go!

 

[Pikache]

Probably the most memorable parts of SG03 was the Griffon ride and seeing a battery of C3s going off underneath.

Oh and sitting in the trench and watching Cougars fire their 76mm and also arty rounds going down and lots of stuff blowing up.

 

[portcullisguy]

It would‘ve been cool to see the C3‘s firing from up in a helo, I agree.

Yes, I remember pizza, and I certainly enjoyed it, but it only showed up very late in the week (I think after the live fire defensive, no?) ... I know, some people will complain about anything.

The showers like 5x a day were pretty silly, and only very late in the week did we find out there was a canteen near the showers where snacks could be had. This would have been vital info, because the canteen truck didn‘t always make it out to the platoon lines. The pepperoni sticks were quite good!

The pizza was a nice gesture, though, I believe organized by the Lorne Scots (in whose Coy we were placed, even though we had more troops on the ground).

 

[The_Falcon]

While I was still at ASU, I was looking at the DIN site for SG04. It looks like it is shaping up to be another craptacular ex. IMP‘s the whole ex until the last day, and more exercising the bigheads rather than the troops. I am going to avoid going if I can. I really do not want to be the CO/RSM driver again.

 

[devil39]

Originally posted by The_Falcon:
[qb] While I was still at ASU, I was looking at the DIN site for SG04. It looks like it is shaping up to be another craptacular ex. IMP‘s the whole ex until the last day, and more exercising the bigheads rather than the troops. I am going to avoid going if I can. I really do not want to be the CO/RSM driver again. [/qb]

Here is the link on the army site.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lfca/ExstalwartGuardian/english/Homepage.asp

Coy level FIBUA, ambush, airmobile, watermanship. Sounds like anything but "craptacular" and certainly not exercising the "bigheads" given that there is time built in for lower level gateway training.

7 days of IMP is nothing, a walk in the park. I would hope that is not the underlying reason for wishing to avoid what should be a valuable learning experience.

 

[Tpr.Orange]

From what ive been told ill be working on the assualt boats for SG04...and to be honest this is going to be my first SG and by reading what you guys have posted im not to sure im gonna wanna go now...

I mean yes sharing your feelings and enjoyment or lack thereof is up to you, but remember there are new soldiers on this forum also and expressing your excitement...or maybe a little enthusiasm for parts of the excersize you liked might help to encourage members of the CF to participate.

 

[The_Falcon]

Originally posted by devil39:


Coy level FIBUA, ambush, airmobile, watermanship. Sounds like anything but "craptacular" and certainly not exercising the "bigheads" given that there is time built in for lower level gateway training.

Thats what they said and did last time, and if you read some people responses to this thread, that a lot of that so-called "training" was ineffective and of little or no training value to the individual soldier. The whole thing was to exercise the big heads, and this year it is going to be more of the same.

7 days of IMP is nothing, a walk in the park. I would hope that is not the underlying reason for wishing to avoid what should be a valuable learning experience. [/QB]

It is actually about 9 1/2 days of IMP, and even 7 days is quite some time to go without eating real food that your body needs. And the reasons I wish not to go are my own.

 

[devil39]

Originally posted by The_Falcon:
[qb]

Originally posted by devil39:


Coy level FIBUA, ambush, airmobile, watermanship. Sounds like anything but "craptacular" and certainly not exercising the "bigheads" given that there is time built in for lower level gateway training.

Thats what they said and did last time, and if you read some people responses to this thread, that a lot of that so-called "training" was ineffective and of little or no training value to the individual soldier. The whole thing was to exercise the big heads, and this year it is going to be more of the same.

7 days of IMP is nothing, a walk in the park. I would hope that is not the underlying reason for wishing to avoid what should be a valuable learning experience. [/qb]

It is actually about 9 1/2 days of IMP, and even 7 days is quite some time to go without eating real food that your body needs. And the reasons I wish not to go are my own. [/QB]

Sure, I read them. Some of them demonstrated a positive, "can do", professional attitude. Some didn‘t.

I guess you or your section commander, Pl Comd, Coy comd, Bn Comd won‘t learn anything on this exercise (read: sarcasm).

Increasing the professional knowledge of the chain of command is bound to improve the overall quality of the reserves. I‘m certain that even you could learn something on this exercise if you put your mind to it. I know I certainly would and I attended my first "MilCon" in 1984. The improvement in the overall professionalism will not occur throughout the chain of command if troops decide (lacking any real valid reason) that they are above this training.

9 1/2 days of IMP is a joke. It really is not a big deal, "mind over matter" as they say, "fuel for the machine". Talk to some Somalia or Afghanistan APOLLO guys about eating IMPs/MREs. Trust me, you will survive just fine as long you don‘t eat the IMP you left in your butt pack last SG.

This soldiering thing really is about professionalism, attitude, and hard work, traits that are found in ample quantities in both the Regular Force and the Reserves.

 

[The_Falcon]

What about training cooks to use a field kitchen, serving a large body of troops? Training the officers is a good thing. They should know what they are doing. But this exercise is a case of to many Col‘s spoilng the ex. I was in the rear for this ex, and I got to see first hand all the lack of planning and thought that did not go into this exercise. And with the contrived scenarios (prepped ambush with one 30rd Mag, yeah ok) that offer very little realism or training for anybody, the whole thing becomes rather pointless. Yes safety is a big concern, but so is realistic training. And from what I saw none of what I saw was remotely realistic.

Take for example the airmobile stand. The amount of time it takes the helicopter to land and takeoff is anywhere between 5-10 minutes (partly to blame is the fact that these birds were not meant as combat helicopters to carry troops with kit, despite what people tell you.) That amount of time is way to long.

And what could I learn, well being a driver for a higher ranks means I am going to spend long periods of doing absolutely nothing at all. Something I could do at home.

 

[devil39]

Originally posted by The_Falcon:
[qb] What about training cooks to use a field kitchen, serving a large body of troops? Training the officers is a good thing. They should know what they are doing. But this exercise is a case of to many Col‘s spoilng the ex. I was in the rear for this ex, and I got to see first hand all the lack of planning and thought that did not go into this exercise. And with the contrived scenarios (prepped ambush with one 30rd Mag, yeah ok) that offer very little realism or training for anybody, the whole thing becomes rather pointless. Yes safety is a big concern, but so is realistic training. And from what I saw none of what I saw was remotely realistic.

Take for example the airmobile stand. The amount of time it takes the helicopter to land and takeoff is anywhere between 5-10 minutes (partly to blame is the fact that these birds were not meant as combat helicopters to carry troops with kit, despite what people tell you.) That amount of time is way to long.

And what could I learn, well being a driver for a higher ranks means I am going to spend long periods of doing absolutely nothing at all. Something I could do at home. [/qb]

I believe in the "new" "non linear, asymmetric and non contiguous...etc, etc" battlefield it gets harder to operate field kitchens tactically. Especially in a light context.

Unless things have changed, there is not enough A and B ech infrastructure in LFCA to support a Light Brigade sized formation. You would only wind up retraining a bunch of Reg Fc cooks who likely don‘t need the practice.

The helicopter training is probably supposed to fun, and is very useful in practicing and rehearsing airmobile SOPs at all levels. A very useful exercise from my point of view, in a Reg Fc or Reserve context.

Training safety for live fire is exactly that...safe. I believe live fire is a tool to inspire confidence and weapon handling primarily. Less important as a tactical trainer. Use MILES and simunition to accomplish the tactical training. It takes many thousands of rounds before you want to start training real tactical scenarios in a live fire environment. I would imagine that most of us will rarely, if ever, have the opportunity to train in real and minimal safety live fire scenarios. It is not worth killing soldiers to achieve realism. See link below.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/ael/pubs/300-008/B-GL-381/001/TS-000/B-GL-381-001-TS-000.pdf

Each EX is different, and perhaps this years EX may be more to your liking. You won‘t know if you don‘t attend.

 

[The_Falcon]

I didn‘t say you had to use live ammo, I said make the training realistic. Reread my post. Doing ambushes with 30rds of ammo (real or blank)is not very realistic training.

And who said anything about being tactical during this ex? It was anything but. The troops were ferried everywere on school buses, and the so called "tactical" portion of the Ex was maybe a day or two at the end of the week. Two years ago at when 32 CBG was running its own Ex we had a full field kitchen serving everyone. And I am sure that if I ask those who were one Op Athena or were in Somalia that they were not on rats the entire deployment. That they got fresh food periodically.


And the helicopter? Again, the airmobile stuff may have been fun for some people, but ask the NCO‘s or anyone with half a brain and you might realize that if you are sitting on the ground in chopper preping to take off for 5 min in a hostile environment, you won‘t get off the ground at all.

You sound like an officer trying to save face.

 

[devil39]

Originally posted by The_Falcon:
[qb] I didn‘t say you had to use live ammo, I said make the training realistic. Reread my post. Doing ambushes with 30rds of ammo (real or blank)is not very realistic training.

And who said anything about being tactical during this ex? It was anything but. The troops were ferried everywere on school buses, and the so called "tactical" portion of the Ex was maybe a day or two at the end of the week. Two years ago at when 32 CBG was running its own Ex we had a full field kitchen serving everyone. And I am sure that if I ask those who were one Op Athena or were in Somalia that they were not on rats the entire deployment. That they got fresh food periodically.


And the helicopter? Again, the airmobile stuff may have been fun for some people, but ask the NCO‘s or anyone with half a brain and you might realize that if you are sitting on the ground in chopper preping to take off for 5 min in a hostile environment, you won‘t get off the ground at all.

You sound like an officer trying to save face. [/qb]

Sorry bud, I‘m in the Army of the West, last in LFCA from 94 - 97. I‘ll plead the US Fifth Amdmt on the Officer part, my business though as far as I am concerned. I‘m here for discussion and opinion not for a game of "rock, paper, rank".

Just trying to provide a little input and a different perspective on what it takes to be a soldier. Field time including IMPs is a part of that. Creates experience they say.

It keeps coming back to rations. You could turn in the combats for an SNC Lavalin contract. : )

I will be glad to go back to LFCA, they do conduct the best Reserve exercises in my opinion.

 

[hhour48]

The last SG was trying to cram too much into the ex, as opposed to doing one or two things, but thoroughly and well.
Spending couple of hours doing work-up for FIBUA and then going in full-bore COY atk is not going to cut it.

For example, during ex Pegasus Stalker it took us the whole day in the MOUT site to work up just to the platoon level. And all of the troops were experienced. During SG you get a lot of young soldiers fresh off their SQ.

Now, the SG also has some value for those new soldiers, since it is usually automatically added on to their contract. It is going to have a huge influence for those troops, since it‘s usually the first time they are exposed to working with their home units.

Personally, I hate it when anyone complains about food, just because i know what some other armies of the world eat, and trust me, we are probably the best fed army in the world, be it rations or kitchen. The ex was quite relaxed, and non-tactical when back in the hide, so it was quite nice to be able to cook your IMPs on a stove and make chicken soup and tea, then eat it together in a section adm area, rather than swallowing your mealpack cold in about 4 minutes while standing up in the rain.

And why in **** would you complain about having showers every day? I just don‘t understand

I think overall SG 03 wasn‘t bad, and SG 04 looks promising. Of course, there are going to be inevitable shortcomings (i.e. lack of time spent on each activity, 30rnd sandbag ambush, Bn defensive in a single straight line, etc) and some other ****ups (like not delivering an entire infantry company their daily alotment of IMPs). But in the end, i can look back and say that I had fun, learned a few things and had a good time with my regiment and the AB COY.

 

[portcullisguy]

Well I‘m going again, this year, and I will "soldier on" and make the best of my return to 3"LIB" - the 3rd Libyan Infantry Bde, or whatever nickname we come up with this year.

My goal is to use the time out in the field as a chance to brush up on individual soldiering skills, get practice using my kit and making the minor changes that we all make to our kit to make it more effective or useful (what to carry, how much, when, where to carry it, etc).

I will never adjust to the IMPs though. I can safely admit that much. The smell just disgusts me. The only entrees I can finish are the pastas, and there aren‘t enough of them. Thus, I will take extra care in packing additional food and creature comforts.

Last year I was in the wpn det with 48Highlander, and I was the #2 on the Carl G... which of course meant I got to carry the Carl G everywhere, because the #1, a Cpl, sure as **** wasn‘t going to. This would have been ok if at some point I was going to FIRE the Carl G, the "live fire" portion of SG03 did not include any support wpns besides the MG‘s (yes, I know, there are obvious trg safety reasons, but still...).

All in all it wasn‘t so bad, it just wasn‘t what I expected.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Originally posted by portcullisguy:
[qb] Shortbus, I did Stalwart Guardian last year, and although I had fun, it seemed apparent why the other troops began referring to it as "fat camp 03".

They fed us IMPs for the entire time, and we had no "fresh" until the End Ex BBQ (and I must admit, the BBQ was quite good, but that‘s a long time to wait for fresh BBQ steak).

Right away I could tell the purpose of this annual milcon was not to exercise the troops at your and my level. It‘s for the higher formation officers to learn how to work with other groupings, units, etc., and to exercise their skills and training at the higher level.

It was very organized, but almost too much so.

For example, during the live-fire ambush, which involved each company from each "battalion" (the three LFCA brigades were reduced to Light Infantry Bn‘s for the ex, as that‘s all they really numbered, and each regiment became either a platoon or company, or in some cases, a section), they couldn‘t do everybody all at once, so over three days each platoon took turns humping out behind one of the ranges (quite far I might add), in order to set up at pre-designated fire positions, completely removing the platoon commander and the gun det commander from the ambush equation, which I don‘t think would happen in "real life". You will learn on a later course that the platoon‘s C6 is THE most important asset at the platoon level, and even the det commander can overrule (or at least "suggest") the proper siting of the C6 gun over the pl commander‘s initial placement. It‘s that vital.

Each of the phases of the ex seemed to take forever, and although we were supposed to be tactical after the 2nd or 3rd day, there must be a new "yellow school bus" camoflauge in the CF, because that‘s what we rode around in all week.

The company-level FIBUA assault with Simunition was pretty fun. It‘s just bad luck that I ended up in a reserve section and didn‘t get in on the shooting.

The helicopter rides were a blast, and the drills a cinch to learn.

What seemed pretty silly from a troopies perspective was the company-level live fire defensive, which involved armour and the recce platoon, as well as engineers. We kept shooting at these high-tech pop-up targets that always appeared in the same place, of course. The left and right arcs weren‘t as restrained as on the ambush, but still it felt kinda silly after about 3 or 4 mags emptied into the same few pop-ups. Our C6 kept having problems (I was the #2, although I had never been trained on the C6 in SF role at the time), and we were at the end of the week and really sort of had it with the whole affair by then.

I‘m sure someone got a few gongs for organizing the whole shebang, but it wasn‘t any fresh-faced pte from the 48th, that much I know!

But, still, it‘s fun to do a big ex like that, and it‘s a chance to put your skills and knowledge to use that you just learned on your courses. I enjoyed finally meeting the lads from my unit, and working with different folks.

Ok, that was a long one! Need to know more, pm me... [/qb]

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Originally posted by portcullisguy:
Shortbus, I did Stalwart Guardian last year, and although I had fun, it seemed apparent why the other troops began referring to it as "fat camp 03".

They fed us IMPs for the entire time, and we had no "fresh" until the End Ex BBQ (and I must admit, the BBQ was quite good, but that‘s a long time to wait for fresh BBQ steak).


There will be a little more fresh this year - but not a whole bunch.


Right away I could tell the purpose of this annual milcon was not to exercise the troops at your and my level. It‘s for the higher formation officers to learn how to work with other groupings, units, etc., and to exercise their skills and training at the higher level.

A fair one. The balance is very hard to achieve. This year the focus is much more at the Company level.

It was very organized, but almost too much so.

For example, during the live-fire ambush, which involved each company from each "battalion" (the three LFCA brigades were reduced to Light Infantry Bn‘s for the ex, as that‘s all they really numbered, and each regiment became either a platoon or company, or in some cases, a section), they couldn‘t do everybody all at once, so over three days each platoon took turns humping out behind one of the ranges (quite far I might add), in order to set up at pre-designated fire positions, completely removing the platoon commander and the gun det commander from the ambush equation, which I don‘t think would happen in "real life". You will learn on a later course that the platoon‘s C6 is THE most important asset at the platoon level, and even the det commander can overrule (or at least "suggest") the proper siting of the C6 gun over the pl commander‘s initial placement. It‘s that vital.

That stand was added at the very last minute, after a soldier was injured preparing for what was meant to be a Brigade level fire defensive. I admit that it was not all that well done. This year, we will have only one live fire activity - the block. I was on the recce this weekend, and it has been designed to allow the Company Commander much more latitude. He (or she) and the R Gp will get to recce the position the day before, and subject to arty and fast air safety distances, has a lot of latitude in where weapons are sited. If they are in teh wrong spot this year, look to your chain of command.

Each of the phases of the ex seemed to take forever, and although we were supposed to be tactical after the 2nd or 3rd day, there must be a new "yellow school bus" camoflauge in the CF, because that‘s what we rode around in all week.

Yep - a real problem. This year we really will be tactical, and 2 Svc Bn will provide extra troop lift to avoid the use of school busses for tactical runs. Each soldier will be issued a basic load of blank ammo at the start of the ex, and will ned it - the OPFOR is a US Army Reserve Coy from US Samoa, and they will be active in the hide area.

The company-level FIBUA assault with Simunition was pretty fun. It‘s just bad luck that I ended up in a reserve section and didn‘t get in on the shooting.

The helicopter rides were a blast, and the drills a cinch to learn.

What seemed pretty silly from a troopies perspective was the company-level live fire defensive, which involved armour and the recce platoon, as well as engineers. We kept shooting at these high-tech pop-up targets that always appeared in the same place, of course. The left and right arcs weren‘t as restrained as on the ambush, but still it felt kinda silly after about 3 or 4 mags emptied into the same few pop-ups. Our C6 kept having problems (I was the #2, although I had never been trained on the C6 in SF role at the time), and we were at the end of the week and really sort of had it with the whole affair by then.

Intersting. There was an entire company pack of defensive stores behind each company position, and yet no one used them. defence is hard work, and takes practice.

I‘m sure someone got a few gongs for organizing the whole shebang, but it wasn‘t any fresh-faced pte from the 48th, that much I know!

No gongs - just a chance to plan a better ex this year.

But, still, it‘s fun to do a big ex like that, and it‘s a chance to put your skills and knowledge to use that you just learned on your courses. I enjoyed finally meeting the lads from my unit, and working with different folks.

Ok, that was a long one! Need to know more, pm me...

[moderator note: edited for clarity, differentiating between quotes and comments]