Exported Trg - Running CTC Crses at Bdes (From: Cutting the CF/DND HQ bloat)

[a_majoor]

A good step is the outsourcing/distributed courses that are being conducted now.

While I can agee in principle, and have seen really good implimentation, it is not in the military side of the house. Places like the Kahn Academy website and MITx produce fabulous interactive and web based instruction (but also benefit from self selection by highly motivated people).

OTOH I have been astonished here at the leadership company by people reporting to the course after the DL portion who simply do not know basic stuff like the principles of instruction (ICEPAC) or verbal support (CREST), and are woefully unprepared to do the actual teaching (the lesson plans I insist they show me for review days before they teach are uniformly a mess; I make them redo them so they actually have something to teach with...).

This is also going to be an issue later on in many of your careers as more and more people receive education and training over the Internet prior to joining the CF. Is the student who received a degree at a brick and mortar institution better educated than someone who did the same courses through MITx? My own opinion is the STEM disciplines need to be taught at "brick and mortars" so you can access special equipment and do lab work, otherwise not.

For military training, some courses should be online for corporals, sergeants, 2Lt's etc to log on on their own time (self selection; find out who the really motivated people are), while others are like the STEM disciplines; you simply can't teach or assess many of the skills and attitudes over the Internet but need human interaction and hands on with real equipment.

 

[Infanteer]

I was not referring to home/computer based training, but rather moving courses from the centre of the training universe (Gagetown) and to garrisons where people are based (Edmonton, Pet).

 

[daftandbarmy]

I was not referring to home/computer based training, but rather moving courses from the centre of the training universe (Gagetown) and to garrisons where people are based (Edmonton, Pet).

Burn him, he's a witch! :nod:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTdDN_MRe64

 

[OldSolduer]

I was not referring to home/computer based training, but rather moving courses from the centre of the training universe (Gagetown) and to garrisons where people are based (Edmonton, Pet).

Blasphemy! sacrilege!

 

[vonGarvin]

A good step is the outsourcing/distributed courses that are being conducted now.

I was not referring to home/computer based training, but rather moving courses from the centre of the training universe (Gagetown) and to garrisons where people are based (Edmonton, Pet).

I'm on the other end of this, and the moving of courses (aka "Career Courses") from Gagetown to the units is, in my opinion, an error.  A greivous error at that.  Yes, the troops don't have to get on a plane and fly to Gagetown, but what we are seeing is three different versions of the same course, all run at arm's length from the centre of excellence and increasingly interefered with by the local mafia chains of command.  As well, there are some absurdities in the current system.  For example, troops in 2 RCR who are attending a 2 CMBG-run course have to go to Petawawa for it instead of walking across the parade square.  Troops in 2 PPCLI have to go to Edmonton, etc.  And then the ERE folks who are scattered across the country have to go to whereever the course is conducted. 
By concentrating the infantry courses in Gagetown (I'll not speak to the other schools here), there are intangibles that are not on any QS or TP.  This includes the networking at the first "national" course they do (DP 3A) which carries them through their careers.  We already have three armies in Canada, and by devolving the training to "where the troops are" only worsens this.

As stated, the peak is in the summer, but the augmentation bill is not as high as one would think.  Not at the instructor level.  The demo troops (drivers, CP operators,, enemy force, etc), are the level where the augmentation bill is high.  But for "peak" in the summer, the spike is not as severe as it once was.

Consider the Infantry School.  There are a number of courses that run year round.  BMOQ-Land does spike dramatically in the summer, but this is offset by the one exception to the rule re: conducting a course away from Gagetown.  You see, the various Area Training Centres help offset the bill of running all these courses (but still away from the field force, but yes, likely heavily augmented).  But for the other courses, such as the dismouinted platoon commander course, the summer "peak" is offset by internal reallocation of officers and warrant officers from other cells, such as the Urban Operations cell, which conducts its courses "off-season". 
And let's not forget that during the "down time", the officers and warrant officers are actually conducting their other tasks as a centre of excellence, which includes updating publications, reviewing courseware, and other stuff that's about as sexy as watching grass grow.

 

[dapaterson]

Any reason why instructors from the Infantry school are glued to Gagetown?  Why can't we send instructors to students instead of students to instructors?  That's one way to maintain the standards.

There is value to networking, but I don't think the traditional model of supporting the bars in Ormocto by constantly importing fresh meat for a few weeks or months is needed for all courses currently delivered there.

 

[Old Sweat]

I believe that the Artillery School has run some officer DP1 series courses at regiments during the summer. I can not comment further regarding the reasons for this course (no pun intended) being selected, but someone may be able to add further info.

A million years ago, actually in 1978, the Infantry School ran a Phase 2 in Chilliwack in the January - March period. A bit of background - the school had stated that Phase 2 could not be run in Gagetown in the winter and had redesigned their training accordingly. (Some how the infantry had coped with winter for quite a while when the school had been in Borden and then Gagetown, but they had convinced somebody.) This, of course, necessitated having young officers return to CTC the following summer for Phase IV instead of leading their platoons in the summer concentrations. Needless to say, when faced with the prospect of supervising Phase 2 at the other end of the country, the school found a way to revert to the old system for 1979 onward.

 

[vonGarvin]

Any reason why instructors from the Infantry school are glued to Gagetown?  Why can't we send instructors to students instead of students to instructors?  That's one way to maintain the standards.

No reason at all why they couldn't do this.  The current model, however, isn't getting the benefits (all dollar-driven) that was first thought.  Yes, it's true that the majority of candidates are in battalions co-located with brigades and associated support; however, there were enough candidates who weren't that the dollar savings were not realised. 

For some courses, doing them away makes perfect sense.  The example listed above, BMOQ-L, is a perfect candidate to be run away from Gagetown.  (If it were run exclusively here, the training area would be flooded with lost, sobbing and weeping 2Lts and OCdts).

For other courses, the numbers are such that it's best to run here.  The extreme is the DP 4 Infantryman; however, DP 3A and DP 3B are also better run here, in their entirety, and this is mainly due to the numbers involved.

There is value to networking, but I don't think the traditional model of supporting the bars in Ormocto by constantly importing fresh meat for a few weeks or months is needed for all courses currently delivered there.

Listen, the gene pool here in NB needs a bit of chlorine from time to time.  So, some "fresh blood" is just what the doctor ordered!  8)

 

[jeffb]

I believe that the Artillery School has run some officer DP1 series courses at regiments during the summer. I can not comment further regarding the reasons for this course (no pun intended) being selected, but someone may be able to add further info.

There was a FOO course that just ended in Petawawa. For the last few years there has been a DP 1.1 run in either Pet, Shilo or Valcartier and sometimes in 2 of these locations at the same time while a DP 1.1 is being run in Gagetown. My understanding is that with three DP 1.1's running concurrently, W Bty does not have the resources to support this many students. It's much easier, and cost effective, to send the candidates a few IG's/ AIG's out to the Regiments then to bring a gun Bty down to Gagetown into an already very crowded training area. I did my 1.1 in Shilo and found the experience to be very rewarding.

I would be willing to guess that there will be fewer of these as the numbers being pushed through the training system decreases for the next few years but I am not at the school so I can't say that for certain.

 

[dapaterson]

No reason at all why they couldn't do this.  The current model, however, isn't getting the benefits (all dollar-driven) that was first thought.  Yes, it's true that the majority of candidates are in battalions co-located with brigades and associated support; however, there were enough candidates who weren't that the dollar savings were not realised. 

However, the increased satisfaction for more folks not having to relocate across the country is another benefit, though one that's mor edifficult to quantify.

For some courses, doing them away makes perfect sense.  The example listed above, BMOQ-L, is a perfect candidate to be run away from Gagetown.  (If it were run exclusively here, the training area would be flooded with lost, sobbing and weeping 2Lts and OCdts).

For other courses, the numbers are such that it's best to run here.  The extreme is the DP 4 Infantryman; however, DP 3A and DP 3B are also better run here, in their entirety, and this is mainly due to the numbers involved.

Agreed - there needs to be an informed, realistic look at courses to decide where best to delvier them - not a knee-jerk "All training must be exported", nor a systemic "Gagetown is the only place that infrantry skills can be trained."

 

[GAP]

Would that save bundles on travel, IR, etc. costs also?

 

[vonGarvin]

However, the increased satisfaction for more folks not having to relocate across the country is another benefit, though one that's mor edifficult to quantify.

The numbers that have to relocate across the country were not as initially anticipated.  A very slight majority didn't have to relocate, and that was due entirely because of 5 GMBC (using the existing example of the Infantryman DP 3A).  Taking 5 brigade out of the mix, and more people were actually going to Petawawa/Edmonton than were already in location.  This was due not only to the respective 2nd Battalions being "away", but also all those ERE folks that had to travel.

Agreed - there needs to be an informed, realistic look at courses to decide where best to delvier them - not a knee-jerk "All training must be exported", nor a systemic "Gagetown is the only place that infrantry skills can be trained."

You're right, of course.  We used to have the "Gagetown is the only place" argument (fail) and the current is "x% of training must be exported" argument is also flawed, IMO. 
If I were King, I would export a number of BMOQ-Land courses (keeping some here to maintain credibility), but would train the future DP 3A (Rifle Section Commander) and the DP 3B (Rifle Platoon 2IC) here in Gagetown for all the intangibles, including putting more variance in the NB gene pool.  The Future Small Arms course?  I think it could be exported to the Training Centres.  But that's just me.

 

[Journeyman]

..I would export a number of BMOQ-Land courses (keeping some here to maintain credibility)....

So you're suggesting that only those courses run in Gagetown are credible....    :stirpot:

 

[vonGarvin]

So you're suggesting that only those courses run in Gagetown are credible....    :stirpot:

er....

ah....

(of course not.  Just it would be rather odd for an institution to be the "centre of excellence" for something that it didn't even do)  ;D

 

[Journeyman]

Ah well, since you guys are the only ones calling the school the "centre of excellence"....  ;D

 

[vonGarvin]

Ah well, since you guys are the only ones calling the school the "centre of excellence"....  ;D

If we say it enough, we just may end up believing it ourselves  :nod:

 

[daftandbarmy]

Why don't we just do it 'OMLT style' for our courses? If it works in Afghanistan and other parts of the world it should work here, shouldn't it? Then again, our OUTCAN students and support networks are probably far more cooperative. ;D

 

[vonGarvin]

Why don't we just do it 'OMLT style' for our courses? If it works in Afghanistan and other parts of the world it should work here, shouldn't it? Then again, our OUTCAN students and support networks are probably far more cooperative. ;D

The problem is getting a critical mass for courses.  And of course, we have the unique geographical "situation" of being five time zones from end to end.  There are only so many instructor billets, and they aren't manned to capacity, so...

 

[McG]

... moving courses from the centre of the training universe (Gagetown) and to garrisons where people are based (Edmonton, Pet).

I've never seen a traveling course staff conduct a course in another location.  Instead, a unit gets tasked to run the exported course - there may be instructor augmentation from the central school, and there will be standards oversight from the central school.  It does happen from time to time.  Sometimes it works, and other times it does not.  Success is dependant on the availability of qualified pers, the availability of required resources, and the willingness of a fd unit to commit the time and effort to host the exported course.

 

[GnyHwy]

Another issue with sending instructors from CTC to other locations is most instructors in Gagetown are doing more than one course at a time, and if they are only doing one, they are programming the next one concurrently.