First Logistics Officer Course - Air (LOCA) at CFB Winnipeg

[OceanBonfire]

 

[Eye In The Sky]

 

[Halifax Tar]

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I was always told coffee and toast was the in AESOP job description ? Or is that only when in the air ?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I was always told coffee and toast was the in AESOP job description ? Or is that only when in the air ?

We make it, for ourselves. If you want to trust us that your coffee is stirred, by all means!

Truth, toast is usually a personal thing. And good coffee is as well. The flight feeding coffee is good paint stripper.

 

[MJP]

This is a great initiative and makes what was a fairly anemic crse for RCAF Log Os more relevant taking place on a base where they can actually engage SMEs and see RCAF logistics in action. Hopefully it is sustained moving forward.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

This is a great initiative and makes what was a fairly anemic crse for RCAF Log Os more relevant taking place on a base where they can actually engage SMEs and see RCAF logistics in action. Hopefully it is sustained moving forward.

I have a friend who is a retired Sea LogO and he felt the skills and capabilities of an Air LogO was fairly diminished comparatively.

 

[MJP]

I have a friend who is a retired Sea LogO and he felt the skills and capabilities of an Air LogO was fairly diminished comparatively.

Air Log personnel are predominantly HR which is of course an important aspect of personnel support but has little bearing on logistics. While there are great Logisticians within the RCAF, my personal observation is that HR dominance hinders development as the pool of mentors for folks doing logistics roles is greatly reduced compared to those developing in the RCN/CA.

The flip side is while RCN/CA view admin/HR as an embedded function of leadership whereas the RCAF separates aspects of it formally, I have found RCAF bases/wings to be better administratively. Usually when there are complex issues it can be resolved faster and at a much lower level as there are folks well versed in our myriad of policies as opposed to hoping your Adjt/Admin O thrust into that role in the RCN/CA can get the right answer.

Sea Log is probably the most rounded given that they train in multiple disciplines at the junior officer level which makes them pretty decent as LCdrs

CA Log is firmly in the middle and really depends if they matriculate in CMBG/Svc Bn environment vs a CDSG in terms of gaining good skill sets at the junior level

That said regardless of environment or where someone matriculates, truly smart Log Os will do well in almost any role as the job is less about courses taken but really being able to learn, gain skills and pull rabbits from a hat as needed.

 

[captloadie]

I would agree with MJP's assessment from a historical perspective. More recently, there has been a push to create more rounded Air Logisticians who are more Supply Chain Managers and less focused on policy and regulations. The issues we are having is that one, the concept of logistical support is always an after thought in the RCAF, and two, we gutted our support positions at the tactical level, and saw a slow transfer to the Strat/Institutional level. This means that while lots of Air Logisticians learn the big picture of how logistics and supply chain management work, fewer and fewer understand how to support flight crews on operations. In fact, there was a time not long ago, where the divide was so great between the operational and logistic support communities on a Wing that Logisticians (Officers and NCOs) didn't understand what they were supporting or why.

 

[MJP]

I would agree with MJP's assessment from a historical perspective. More recently, there has been a push to create more rounded Air Logisticians who are more Supply Chain Managers and less focused on policy and regulations. The issues we are having is that one, the concept of logistical support is always an after thought in the RCAF, and two, we gutted our support positions at the tactical level, and saw a slow transfer to the Strat/Institutional level. This means that while lots of Air Logisticians learn the big picture of how logistics and supply chain management work, fewer and fewer understand how to support flight crews on operations. In fact, there was a time not long ago, where the divide was so great between the operational and logistic support communities on a Wing that Logisticians (Officers and NCOs) didn't understand what they were supporting or why.

That was pretty much the way I saw/experienced it as well. It didn't help that in the the past the Supply course was just a huge policy and pam word control F search which any monkey could do. No MIMS now DRMIS, no indepth discussion of the DSC or supply chain principles, in essence no real instruction on how to do supply just loads of supply policy.

The QuarterMaster course was better as you actually did recces and did planning however its success relied on the quality of instructors and their experience. As a CA person on that course it helped refine some of the skills they were already utilizing, usually as a Pl Comd, Duty O in a CP or the like. Our RCAF partners struggled with aspects of that real world support but could speak very well on big picture things. It all comes out in the wash at higher ranks but I would argue that not understanding how support works at a tactical level for an environment can lead to bad decisions as senior staff

Now the Supply and QM course are revamped to be more functional and orientated to doing the job so that is a good win. Getting the LOCA to Winnipeg and away from the cookie cutter world at CFLTC if it is sustained will be another win IMHO

 

[Happy Guy]

Concur with MJP's assessment on the Log O's (Sup Os) competencies within the Environments.
Concur with captloadie's assessment on the Air Sup Os.

A Log O's competence is based on several things: thorough knowledge; use of knowledge for planning and successful application; experience at the tactical, operational and strategic level; ability to lead and gain cooperation and confidence from their subordinates, peers and superiors. I can't stress enough that a Log O's first experience should be at the base/unit level.

It is of vital importance that the common courses be continued. This allows Log Os from the difference environments to have contacts and to be able to fruitfully use them to pull rabbits out of the hat. I can't tell you how many times I've asked friends, who were on the same course as me, for valuable information or for favours.

 

[dapaterson]

If it's any consolation, the operational occupations across the board mostly think logistics is magic and assume it away in plans.

RCLS should get Penn and Teller to be the branch HCol and HLCol...

 

[Kilted]

How long is the generic Log O course?

 

[burdseyeflu]

Air Log personnel are predominantly HR which is of course an important aspect of personnel support but has little bearing on logistics. While there are great Logisticians within the RCAF, my personal observation is that HR dominance hinders development as the pool of mentors for folks doing logistics roles is greatly reduced compared to those developing in the RCN/CA.

The flip side is while RCN/CA view admin/HR as an embedded function of leadership whereas the RCAF separates aspects of it formally, I have found RCAF bases/wings to be better administratively. Usually when there are complex issues it can be resolved faster and at a much lower level as there are folks well versed in our myriad of policies as opposed to hoping your Adjt/Admin O thrust into that role in the RCN/CA can get the right answer.

Sea Log is probably the most rounded given that they train in multiple disciplines at the junior officer level which makes them pretty decent as LCdrs

CA Log is firmly in the middle and really depends if they matriculate in CMBG/Svc Bn environment vs a CDSG in terms of gaining good skill sets at the junior level

That said regardless of environment or where someone matriculates, truly smart Log Os will do well in almost any role as the job is less about courses taken but really being able to learn, gain skills and pull rabbits from a hat as needed.

I'm awaiting offer for log in the RCAF. What can I do to lean into an equipment-based or lso branch of log going in? I feel as if something more kinetic is my style; less so in the HR end.

 

[MJP]

I'm awaiting offer for log in the RCAF. What can I do to lean into an equipment-based or lso branch of log going in? I feel as if something more kinetic is my style; less so in the HR end.

Just state a preference for LSO. HR which is really adminstration is imbedded into both streams. As a leader you will need to know and understand adminstrative direction.

 

[burdseyeflu]

Just state a reference for LSO. HR which is really adminstration is imbedded into both streams. As a leader you will need to know and understand adminstrative direction.

Ahh, this clarifies a perspective. I used to unit nurse and similarly, it helped to know how the brass and back end works. Ty