First Medal of Honor for a Living Afghan War Vet

[dapaterson]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Barack Obama will award the first Medal of Honor to go to a living service member who fought in the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Staff Sgt. Salvatore Giunta served as a rifle team leader during combat operations in Afghanistan's Korengal Valley. The White House says Giunta went beyond the call of duty during an October 2007 attack when he exposed himself to enemy fire to pull a comrade back to cover. When he later noticed two insurgents carrying away another fellow solider, Giunta engaged the enemy, killing one and wounding the other before providing medical aid to the wounded U.S. soldier.

Obama spoke with Giunta Thursday to inform him he would receive the nation's highest military honor.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/09/10/us/politics/AP-US-Obama-Medal-of-Honor.html?hp

 

[exspy]

Outstanding!  Congratulations to Staff Sergeant Guinta.

Three years is a long time to have to decide if the action was of sufficient merit or not.  I'm glad it went his way.

Cheers,
Dan.

 

[SeanNewman]

Hopefully we follow suit and get a handful of young lads a VC before it's too late and we all trade our weapons in for blue berets.

We've now cycled tens of thousands of people through Kandahar and been in thousands of TICs, so somehow I don't think giving out 3-4 of them would cheapen it.

What the heck did we make them for if we were never going to give them out?

Note - I know this has been covered on other threads, I'm just stating that the MOH had a stigma attached to it for a while too that they weren't giving it to living soldiers, so hopefully that's the catalyst we needed.

 

[57Chevy]

Washington (CNN) -- Medals of Honor have been rare since the end of the Vietnam war. And not one of the recipients from the Somalia, Iraq or Afghanistan deployments have been alive to have the iconic blue ribbon with the gold star draped around his neck. Until now.
      Staff Sgt. Salvatore Giunta

          (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)

 

[mariomike]

Hopefully we follow suit and get a handful of young lads a VC before it's too late and we all trade our weapons in for blue berets.

"The definition of the “enemy” was expanded to reflect the new reality of warfare in the 1990s, the Department of National Defence noting it entailed “a hostile armed force, including armed mutineers, armed rebels, armed rioters and armed pirates. Canada does not have to be at war to acknowledge the existence of an enemy which fits this description. It is broad enough to encompass Canadian involvement in UN peacekeeping operations.”
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/boo-bro/vc-cv/doc/vc-cv-eng.pdf
page 38.

In the case of a group of individuals who were equally brave:
"It is ordained that, in the event of a gallant and daring act having been performed by a squadron, ship's company, a detached body of seamen and marines, not under fifty in number, or by a brigade, regiment, troop, or company, in which the Admiral, General, or other officer commanding such forces, may deem that all are equally brave and distinguished, and that no special selection can be made by them : then in such case, the Admiral, General, or other officer commanding, may direct, that for any such body of seamen or marines, or for every troop or company of soldiers, one officer shall be selected by the officers engaged for the Decoration; and in like manner one petty officer or non-commissioned officer shall be selected by the petty officers and non-commissioned officers engaged; and two seamen or private soldiers or marines shall be selected by the seamen, or private soldiers, or marines, engaged respectively, for the Decoration ; and the names of those selected shall be transmitted by the senior officer in command of the naval force, brigade, regiment, troop, or company, to the Admiral or General Officer Commanding, who shall in due manner confer the Decoration as if the acts were done under his own eye."
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/21846/pages/411
page 411.

[/quote]
We've now cycled tens of thousands of people through Kandahar and been in thousands of TICs, so somehow I don't think giving out 3-4 of them would cheapen it.

What the heck did we make them for if we were never going to give them out?

[/quote]

Historically, V.C.'s have been very rare. Only 16 were awarded to Canadians in World War Two.
None were awarded during the Korean War.

 

[57Chevy]

What the heck did we make them for if we were never going to give them out?

OK......I posted the same story in Foreign Militaries (US) this morning. ;D

 

[SeanNewman]

Historically, V.C.'s have been very rare. Only 16 were awarded to Canadians in World War Two.

That is true, but two things have changed significantly:
1.  The medals are now fully Canadian; and
2.  Without a "front", soldiers (especially OMLT) are involved in combat more often (agreed not on a massive scale, though).

My primary concern is that over time the standard required to earn a VC has become essentially impossible.  Look at the citation for Johnson Beharry compared to what soldiers were getting it for back in the 1800s, and you will see what I mean.

In WW2 as you quoted I agree that they were relatively rare, which is why I mentioned what I did about a perception that giving any out now would somehow cheapen it.  But when you compare the citations to what some soldiers are doing now compared to what has earned a VC in the past, and it would seem as I wrote that we have placed the bar so high as to be unachievable.

And it's not like the nominations aren't getting pushed forward, either.  The Coy 2ICs were putting all sorts of nominations through, and citations that would have earned a VC in the Boer War would come back with a MID (we don't actually forward them for a specific medal, but a category, which is valour in this case).

I'm not sure what the perfect solution is, but I do believe we have it wrong by not giving any out by now.  We can't just upgrade everyone who was given a Star of Valour a VC because there are 10 of those now and I agree that 10 would be too many, but in the big picture I just don't see the point going through all the effort Canada went through if we weren't going to award it to anyone.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

We had a discussion about the awarding of VC's in a Canadian military history class I took in university and it seemed to be a common consensus amongst the group that nobody thought a VC would ever be awarded again.  A member receiving the VC would undoubtedly make him a war hero and an icon amongst Canadians and I just don't think that sits very well with the government.  This goes hand in hand with the fact that the government seems to prefer the military remain somewhat "out of sight, out of mind" with Canadians.

 

[Jammer]

Without a doubt the issue regarding the criteria does not lay at the initiating level.
I cannot understand how those who sit in judgement of others actions under fire do not "qualify" for particular honours and awards, when they themselves weren't there to witness them.
Does Canada have a fear of awarding a VC for actions in a war that is so controversial?

 

[Dog Walker]

I would feel sorry for anyone who would be unfortunate enough to win a VC. First if they were planning a career in the CF the VC would effectively end their career, and turn them into a public relation ornament used by DND and politicians. Second, our media would be going out of their way to trash the reputation of the person, just so they could get a story.

 

[ModlrMike]

Does Canada have a fear of awarding a VC for actions in a war that is so controversial?

I think that at this late date, it may be the problem. I don't think there is an institutional bias against awarding the VC, just that the current climate of public opinion goes against it.

 

[Rifleman62]

In today's PC Canada, do you think it would be at least considered/discussed that if one was to be awarded, two others should be considered?

 

[SeanNewman]

I would feel sorry for anyone who would be unfortunate enough to win a VC.

Just a personal thing, but I don't think the word "win" should be associated with medals, particularly valour ones.

You win on a scratch lottery ticket because it's chance.  You win a basketball game.  You can even "win" a gold medal at the olympics but IMO that's very different than earning a war medal.

On that note though, you make some good points about who that one person may be, and the only answer is that's why it should be 3-4 of them.

When I was overseas, the tour started at 97 fatalities and the PAOs were very concerned about the family of the 100th because of the extra attention they may receive, but there were three at a time killed making it simultaneously 98, 99, and 100 so (no other word to describe this) fortunately no one family got the extra media.

 

[mariomike]

Without a "front", soldiers (especially OMLT) are involved in combat more often (agreed not on a massive scale, though).

Where was the front in the bombing campaign over Occupied Europe?
"The real importance of the air war consisted in the fact that it opened a second front before the invasion of Europe. The front was the skies over Germany. Every square metre of the territory we controlled was a kind of front line. Defence against air attacks required the production of thousands of anti-aircraft guns, the stockpiling of tremendous quantities of ammunition over the country, and holding in readiness hundreds of thousands of soldiers, who in addition had to stay in position by their guns, often totally inactive, for months at a time. As far as I can judge from the accounts I have read, no one has yet seen that this was the greatest lost battle on the German side."
Albert Speer, Spandau, the Secret Diaries (1959)

Bomber Command conducted 387,416 operational sorties over Occupied Europe during the war, and dropped almost one million tons of bombs on enemy targets.

Edit to add:
Regarding "no living V.C.'s", this goes back at least as far as 1942.:
"But like the rest of ( Air Vice-Marshal ) Bennett's men, they took intense pride in their membership in 8 Group, in the ban on publicity about their 'ops', in Bennett's insistence that there should be no stars or professional heroes among his officers. 'There will be no living V.C.'s in 8 Group' the Australian had anounced in 1942."
"Bomber Command" by Sir Max Hastings
page 280

‘There will be no living VCs in Pathfinder Force’:
http://www.vectorfineart.co.uk/books/heroic_endeavour.html

In spite of that decree, there was no shortage of volunteers:
"Bennett addressed each intake personally and the crews came to have an intense sense of loyalty, pride and professionalism in their membership of 8 Group."

Air Vice-Marshall Donald Bennett CB, CBE, DSO
"All who served under him knew that he would never ask anyone to do anything he would not have been prepared to do himself - the hallmark of a true leader. One pilot who served with him wrote: The loyalty shown to him by 8 group was derived mainly from his example and in the knowledge that anything we would do, he could do better.":
http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/pathfind.html

At least 3,727 members of 8 Group alone were Killed in Action.

That was the same case for Canadians in Bomber Command. There was only one V.C. awarded, and it was posthumous.

10,659 Canadians were Killed in Action in Bomber Command. That does not include those killed in off-duty accidents or illness, or Coastal Command, Fighter Command, meteorological flights, glider towing, Far East service, etc.

As far as "politics" is concerned, they never even received a campaign medal.

 

[SeanNewman]

Where was the front-line in the bombing campaign over Occupied Europe?

I actually thought about opening that sidebar but didn't want to get too far away from the point; everyone knows the hardships and the statistics that went along with the AirForce in WW2.

The nature of air warfare rarely allows for a ground soldier-like occasion though, even if overall it was a more dangerous trade.

It is fascinating reading some of the AirForce VC write ups though, right down to some of them standing on the wing with their hand reaching inside still trying to fly it because the cockpit is on fire.

 

[from darkness lite]

Congrats to the Staff Sgt

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100910/world/us_obama_medal_of_honor

 

[Dog Walker]

There are three soldiers, one from New Zealand, one from Australia and one from the UK who have being awarded the VC for their actions in Afghanistan


Corporal William Apiata VC from New Zealand. 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jul/03/afghanistan.international

Trooper Mark Donaldson VC from Australia. 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/4270524/Australian-soldier-awarded-Victoria-Cross-for-saving-translator.html

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/vc-trooper-gives-up-pr-role-for-afghan-front-line/story-e6frg6nf-1225873745186

Corporal Bryan Budd of 3PARA 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Budd

 

[Arctic Acorn]

Not to take away from the award and the act itself, but in a way I feel bad for the guy. Looking at examples of past VC/MoH winners, fame isn't an easy thing to live with, especially when it's based on what was likely the worst day of your life. 

Given the US media's tendency to build folks up in the press only to tear them down later, I hope he gets the support he'll need from his chain of command.

 

[gun runner]

I was under the impression that Canada no longer awards the VC,rather they have made a Canadian version of the medal for our servicemen/women.Is this true?

 

[dangerboy]

There is the Canadian VC, here is the web site with info: http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group02/canvc