Freedom of Speech?

[LawnDart]

Thanks to the administrator of this site for locking the previous discussion.

That provided an amazing segway for my next post, the lack of intellectual freedom in Canada compared to the US.

I should start by admitting, I love America. They have a great Army, great Navy, great Marines and great Air Force.

I remember watching US soldiers in the first Gulf War bitching openly on NBC news about how things were going. No CF type would EVER have done that and expected to live! They were like the naughty big brother, always challenging his parents authority, while the CF bred automons who mouthed the party line about whatever they were told to say.

I love the open, free debate Yanks enjoy. On TV, they have a diverse range of opinions. From Bill O'Reilly on Fox to Dennis Miller on CNBC. These guys are fearless. They say what they think, and to hell with the consequences. Try espousing a non-left wing point of view on CBC.

For God's Sakes, you can't even get on a Canuck website and have a meaningful debate and expect to live in this country! Much better to spend our days debating the relative merits of Cadpat Vs BritCam.

Pierre Berton used to say he became a real writer when he learned to challenge the Status Quo, to say things that people told him he couldn't say in Canada. Absoulutely right.

Grow up guys.

Those With a Point, Argue It. Those Without, Avoid it.

 

[winchable]

If you don't like it, don't come around.

The thread was locked after 2 pages of flaming and the same back and forth trash arguments we get around here all the time from guys who are 15 years old, if you think your thread was something new you're wrong.

If you think that the site only offers the debates regarding the merits of Camoflage then you are not reading through the threads at all.

Your call.

Also might I suggest trying an outright rude criticism of the American military on one of their forums and see how well THAT is received.

 

[Thompson_JM]

well said che.


With all due respect to your military experience its a pity you didn't learn a little about tact... or if you did, how to properly employ it.

there is plenty of room for free speech here... but keep it civil, and keep it intelligent... if you come on here and start spouting off about how crappy the CF is, then obviously you're going to get flak. 

I'm not expecting a very intelligent response from you since you no doubt view me as a pathetic Loggie, and therefore not worth your time. even worse I'm a 'Mo.... but that is your choice.. just keep in mind, if you're not going to even try to make your post intelligent or thoughtfull then no one is going to look at it as anything more then B*tching, Whining and Drivel...

You obviously have a lot of experience, which could no doubt help educate many of the less experienced troopies on here. We are all aware of the serious lack of leadership in some areas of the CF. why not use yours to help us make the CF better.

Regards
  Josh

 

[muskrat89]

It must be a terrifying experience to be forced at gunpoint to log onto an internet mesage board and type things...    :

Mike and Staff must be doing a good job - half the members think we don't enforce the rules strictly enough... the other half thinks we're too heavy handed... 

 

[Torlyn]

I just figured I'd keep my nose out of this particular one. 

T

 

[c_canuk]

you don't save a sinking boat by pointing out all the holes and blaming the ones trying to bail it out...

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

Its a strange position the Canadian soldier finds himself in.  An American soldier can bitch, and be assured that the media and public (save the Michael Moore crowd) will wrap it in a flag and keep it positive.  If an yank bitches about his vehicles armour, it lights a fire under his gov and corps to up-armour it, because the public is behind the soldier, and the mission, and it is accepted that the criticism was offered by a soldier who supports the mission and his brethren, but wishes the tools to do it properly.  If a Canadian were to make the same comments, our media would use it to demand a) the mission get scrapped, b)the next deployment be without those vehicles, c)a million dollar public enquiry as to wether we should charge the soldiers CO for exposing him to harm, and a CBC special documenting how that particular mission was poorly run, harmed our relations with the special and misunderstood  visionary local bandit/warlord and his enlightened social policies, and a waste of tax payer dollars.  Our media are either ignorant of us, or actively against us (save Rick Mercer and Don Cherry, our last best hopes).  Our politicians are willing to take credit for the same operations they vote against in the House of Commons.  Our public, kept ignorant by a combination of the above media and politicians cannot be bothered to understand our needs, missions, and duties.  If we were to employ the same open criticism of the army that the Americans do, we would be cutting our own throats.  CF policy on this is realpolitik; you cannot be paranoid if everyone really is out to get you.

 

[Thirstyson]

LawnDart, your method of trolling shows a wealth of experience. What other sites have you used to hone your skills?

This guy is not interested in debate, only in causing agitation.

 

[Gayson]

Mike and Staff must be doing a good job - half the members think we don't enforce the rules strictly enough... the other half thinks we're too heavy handed...    

I think the rules are enforced just right.

 

[Mad Max]

Hi, Troops! Well done, Lawn Dart! Army.ca would APPEAR to be a site for those REALLY interested in THE MILITARY-NOT the dilletante types who get offended when a spade is called a spade! Dissenting opinion, if from an informed and interested source, is good for a site like this. It keeps those who are not, but who THINK they are, informed. I can completely understand Lawn Dart's sense of cynicism as regards the state of the C.F.- as a Soldier, I share it. The C.F should not be spoken for by those who have created this netherworld of Political Correctness and lunacy. There IS a problem, and denying its existence will not make it go away! Some of you who don't have the knowledge or experience in this area really have no business speaking in outrage about the statements made by a guy who obviously DOES have knowledge, experience, and an eminently defendable point of view! To speak out loud of this is NOT treason, but true PATRIOTISM! Well done, Lawn Dart!

 

[winchable]

I would agree with you mostly, it is patriotism to criticise what one feels is lacking.

However the offending post wasn't a critcism as much as it was a slandering of one military, and like I said, go on an American site and offer an opinion comparing the American military to another nation in an unfavourable light and see how it is recieved.

And as was pointed out before, no one is standing behind anyone at their computer and holding a gun to them saying "TYPE"
If one has issues with the site there is no ombudsman to take it up with, and as it stands we are required to walk a very gentle line.
I know the older-types hate hearing it, and I doubt any of this will resonate with them but it's worth a shot.

Or would it be better if Jungle, who has similar if not more service, came and said the exact same thing?

 

[Brad Sallows]

You do have freedom of thought and expression.

What you don't have is a right to demand a platform be provided.

 

[Mad Max]

You know, whenever I hear someone talking about "slander" I keep going back to the O.J. trial-remember? If the glove don't fit, you must acquit! Beautiful! And it worked on those dummies on the jury. HERE'S THE POINT: there is a serious problem with our C.F. Anyone who disagrees with that is, by definition, part of the problem, not the solution! We could probably talk for WEEKS about WHO WHAT WHERE WHY and HOW! Everyone is entitled to an opinion. That doesn't mean the opinion is worth a pinch of coon crap. But he's entitled to it. Guys like me who very definitely have an interest in The Profession of Arms don't have to be dragged to the keyboard and made to type. We speak out however we can- this is just one venue. I would think that those who are less well informed would welcome input-however objectionable it may be to them personally- from those who really do know of what they speak.

 

[Infanteer]

Mad Max, Lawndart;

First off, read the Conduct Guidelines.   I don't care how you guys think things should happen here because this a Private Forum - there is no "Free Speech" and your useage of bandwidth is dependent on the owner.   Both of you do nothing here but seek to antagonize the general audience and draw the discussions into the mud ("The CF is full of losers" comes to mind) and the act is getting old pretty quick.

Second off, read the thread on Professionalism.   Neither of you seem to have any notion of "Constructive Criticism" - look it up.   All I see is bitterness and complaining.   I could care less if either of you were at Vimy Ridge, it is what you do here and now that counts.   You may write off a good proportion of the discussions here as "PC Crap" and that you are "Calling a Spade a Spade" but all you are doing is providing a poor example of mentorship and contribution to professional dialogue - remember, if you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem; simply pouting like a 4 year old isn't going to solve anything.   If there is a problem, point it out and offer a solution; otherwise spare us from your daily tragedy of life in the CF because we have better things to do (and read).

Instead of whining why don't you guys try to be constructive and go over to the Combat Arms section and contribute to the threads on the Infantry of the Future or the Future of the Regimental System.   Since you both are so eager to trumpet your Time-In, put it to good use and get involved in issues where I am sure you have a good degree of real experience in the field.

 

[dutchie]

Mad Max/Lawn Dart:

Are you going to come to some sort of a point, or is this Forum your own personal clearing pit for your rage?

You need to gear down a little, Big Rig.

ps   - sorry Infanteer, I didn't see your post.

 

[jasper]

Infanteer, as a moderator, you may find it helpful to proof read your posts before sending them, to make sure they say what you mean.To the untrained eye, which there may be a few viewing this site, you just disrespected alot of Vimy Ridge vets. You may not care who was at Vimy Ridge, but alot of others very well may. I am sure that is not what you meant, however, that is how I read it..........  Sorry if I just offended you, just  constructive criticism.

 

[Torlyn]

Jasper, I'm pretty sure you mis-read that.  I'm not sure if you noticed, but his response was to both this particular thread, and another one that was previously locked.  Infanteer and I have rarely agreed with, well, anything, and his point regarding vimy ridge was non-offensive.  I'd re-read his post yourself. 

T

 

[Infanteer]

The post says exactly what it means.   I am not about to allow anyone to use previous experience in the military run down this forum, its members, and people currently serving in the CF just because he wore an airborne beret, was in for 20 years, etc, etc.   Experience counts, but bring it to the table and use it instead of offering it as some sort of "the rest of you are useless peckers...." kind of rant.   Nobody gets carte-blanche to be knob around here based upon what they've done in their life.

Anyways, this thread is about as good as the last one so it's getting the lock too.