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French President Sarkozy: "Burqas are not welcome" in France

CougarKing

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I wonder what the reaction of Europe's Muslim community will be?

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/090622/world/france_politics_islam_women_rights

Burkas not welcome in France: Sarkozy
Mon Jun 22, 12:40 PM

VERSAILLES, France (AFP) - President Nicolas Sarkozy said on Monday that the burka was not welcome in secular France, condemning the head-to-toe cover as a symbol of subjugation rather than the Muslim faith.


"We cannot accept to have in our country women who are prisoners behind netting, cut off from all social life, deprived of identity," he said. "That is not the idea that the French republic has of women's dignity."


"The burka is not a sign of religion, it is a sign of subservience," he told lawmakers in a major policy speech. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French republic."



The speech came just two weeks after Sarkozy and US President Barack Obama diverged on whether states should legislate on religious clothing, an issue which has sparked controversy in Europe.


France, home to an estimated five million Muslims, passed a law in 2004 banning headscarves or any other "conspicuous" religious symbol in state schools in a hotly contested bid to defend secularism.


Last year a Moroccan woman was refused French citizenship after social services said she wore a burka and was living in "submission" to her husband.


Sarkozy told a special session of parliament he was in favour of holding an inquiry sought by some French lawmakers into whether Muslim women who cover themselves fully in public undermine French secularism and women's rights.


But the president added "we must not fight the wrong battle, in the republic the Muslim religion must be respected as much as other religions."


The inquiry proposal has won support from politicians on the left and right, but France's official Muslim council accused lawmakers of wasting time on a fringe phenomenon.


"To raise the subject like this, via a parliamentary committee, is a way of stigmatising Islam and the Muslims of France," Mohammed Moussaoui, head of the French Council for the Muslim Religion (CFCM), said last week.


There are no official figures but several thousand women are thought to wear the burka in France.


Obama this month defended the choice of some Muslim women to wear the Islamic headscarf.


It is "important for Western countries to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practising religion as they see fit for instance, by dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear," he said.


But Sarkozy told him when the two leaders met in France that his country took a different view.


"Civil servants must not wear any outward sign of their religion, whether they are Catholics, Jewish, Orthodox, Protestants or Muslims," he said, adding that a woman could wear a headscarf provided it was her own decision.


Communist MP Andre Gerin is spearheading the drive for a parliamentary panel that would look at ways to restrict the burka, which he describes as a "prison" and "degrading" for women.


Immigration Minister Eric Besson has warned against reigniting a row on the issue of Islamic dress, saying "France has managed to strike a balance, and it would be dangerous to call that into question."

 
From what I'm reading : quiet at the moment.

Sarkozy is often speaking controversial things,
so some people take him with a grain of salt,
even if he's President... In France, they seem
to discuss more the meeting and the cost of it
(400 000 euros, probably around 639 000$
at 1,5987).

Sarkozy Says Full-Body Muslim Gowns a ‘Symbol of Enslavement’, NY Times

sarkozy.600.1.jpg

French President Nicolas Sarkozy, left, arriving at the Chateau of Versailles
to address French Senate members and French National Assembly deputies
on Monday.


Sarkozy speaks out against burka, BBC News
French President Nicolas Sarkozy has spoken out strongly against the wearing
of the burka by Muslim women in France.

"This latest call for a potential ban of the burka has prompted
the head of the French Council for the Muslim Religion to warn MPs
they risk stigmatising Muslims again.

But the special inquiry does have the backing of Dalil Boubakeur,
rector of the Paris Mosque and a former head of the Muslim council,
who insists that Islam in France should be an "open and convivial
Islam that allows people to live side by side".

He fears that anecdotal evidence that more women are wearing the
burka in France is linked to an "excess, a radicalisation" among some
Muslims. "



Sarkozy: France 'Cannot Accept' Burqas


Sarkozy stirs French burka debate

Since this was the first time in almost one and a half centuries that a French president
had been allowed to address parliament, President Nicolas Sarkozy's speech was already
on course to ruffle a few feathers.

Sarkozy to break century-old French tradition with 'state of the union' address

Sarkozy devant le Congrès : première majeure, consensus mineur
 
The Burqa is not even a traditional Islamic requirement.  It is a man made rule invented over time.

I'm not entirely certain why Muslims are so offended by this.  Even in terms of posing for drivers licenses, passports and other government identification that requires a visual facial picture, there seems to always be that level of contempt for having to expose their faces.

It is not against their religion as intended when the Qur'an was written.
 
Xiang said:
I'm not entirely certain why Muslims are so offended by this.  .

I'll bet 99.99 per cent wwouldn't even give it a passing thought, but the media, ever looking for a carcass to render, will latch on to the .01 percent and give them front page coverage with trumpets blaring....
 
The issue resurfaces with a notable French Parliament report:

A much-anticipated French parliament report called Tuesday for a ban on the burqa, or full Islamic veil, in all schools, hospitals, public transport and government offices, saying the veil was an affront to French values.

"The wearing of the full veil is a challenge to our republic. This is unacceptable," the report released by a parliament commission said.

President Nicolas Sarkozy set the tone for the debate when he said last June that the veil was “not welcome in France” and was a symbol of the “subservience of women” that was not in line with the French Republic’s core value of equality.

Polls say most French voters support a ban on the burqa, a term generically used for the niqab - which covers the face, but leaves the eyes open - as well as the traditional burqa, or all-enveloping garment with a mesh, used in Afghanistan and the Indian subcontinent.

In France, the niqab is used by the Muslim community although in practice, only a tiny minority of the country’s estimated five million Muslims opt to wear it.

more here:

France 24 news link
 
This is a waste of air. Just as much on the President of France's part as it is on the media's.

What are they gonna do? Pass a law to stop it? And then what if a non-muslim wants to wear one as some rediculous fashion crap? Will that be illegal? What if all the Muslim women decide to wear a ski-mask instead?

"Ma'am we're going to have to charge you for hiding your face" "I'm f**king cold, officer?"
 
ballz said:
This is a waste of air. Just as much on the President of France's part as it is on the media's.

What are they gonna do? Pass a law to stop it? And then what if a non-muslim wants to wear one as some rediculous fashion crap? Will that be illegal? What if all the Muslim women decide to wear a ski-mask instead?

"Ma'am we're going to have to charge you for hiding your face" "I'm f**king cold, officer?"

Is it?  They have been successful in the past....

French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools

dileas

tess
 
ballz said:
This is a waste of air. Just as much on the President of France's part as it is on the media's.

What are they gonna do? Pass a law to stop it? And then what if a non-muslim wants to wear one as some rediculous fashion crap? Will that be illegal? What if all the Muslim women decide to wear a ski-mask instead?

"Ma'am we're going to have to charge you for hiding your face" "I'm f**king cold, officer?"

They should print everyone's religion on ID cards too so that way they know if they are wearing a Burqa illegally or not.
 
Dean22 said:
They should print everyone's religion on ID cards too so that way they know if they are wearing a Burqa illegally or not.

Too hard for "head-covering officers" to check - just make them wear conspicuous badges on their arms.
 
the 48th regulator said:
Is it?  They have been successful in the past....

I guess that depends on your definition of successful. To me, it seems to be causing a lot of crap and trouble and wasting a lot of money over something pretty darn petty...

The gun-registry passed too... does that mean it's been successful?

It's made criminals out of otherwise innocent people (much like this thing has in schools [obviously I recognize nobody's being thrown in jail and given a criminal record over it]... wearing a cross that's too large is considered wearing an "ostentatious" religion symbol, while wearing one perhaps only slightly smaller (hey, there's gotta be line drawn somewhere in the middle of small and large) is not?), and really hasn't done anything positive to justify that, or the money spent in keeping it.
 
ballz said:
I guess that depends on your definition of successful. To me, it seems to be causing a lot of crap and trouble and wasting a lot of money over something pretty darn petty...

The gun-registry passed too... does that mean it's been successful?

It's made criminals out of otherwise innocent people (much like this thing has in schools [obviously I recognize nobody's being thrown in jail and given a criminal record over it]... wearing a cross that's too large is considered wearing an "ostentatious" religion symbol, while wearing one perhaps only slightly smaller (hey, there's gotta be line drawn somewhere in the middle of small and large) is not?), and really hasn't done anything positive to justify that, or the money spent in keeping it.

Successful in the fact that it was enacted, and maintained, with no admonishment from the international community since 2004.

In less than two years of enactment;

In September 2005, the Ministry of Education reported that only 12 students showed up with distinctive religious signs in the first week of classes, compared to 639 in the preceding year. A number of students have elected to take distance-learning classes from CNED. There is a case of a Sikh student in the académie of Créteil, who refused to remove his turban.

So don't stand there and send it off as fluff.  It is happening, it is real, and recognizing it will stop the likes of France from continuing this. 

But then again, we can take the Laissez-faire, as you have and hope that it is nothing at all....

dileas

tess
 
the 48th regulator said:
So don't stand there and send it off as fluff.  It is happening, it is real, and recognizing it will stop the likes of France from continuing this. 

But then again, we can take the Laissez-faire, as you have and hope that it is nothing at all....

Oh, I think I get what you're on about now.

I was trying to emphasize the waste of time it was on the president's part when there are much more trying issues that he should be concerned with.

In saying it was a waste of the media's time to talk about it, wasn't meant to be about "just letting a human's basic rights be violated," more to do with the fact that yes, I am pretty non-chalant when it comes to religion, so while I'm against it, there are other issues I find a lot less petty.
 
Related:

Summary: A Muslim man in France has been denied citizenship because he forces his wife to wear a full veil.

CNN link 
 
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the Financial Times via the Globe and Mail web site is more on France’s problems with “reasonable accommodation:”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/halal-burgers-raise-french-hackles/article1474481/
Halal burgers raise French hackles
Quick’s experiment has triggered a storm of protest from politicians, who say the company is breaching the country’s secular tradition

Ben Hall

Paris — FT.com

Friday, Feb. 19, 2010 1:47PM EST
Achain of French fast-food restaurants has got itself in a pickle after it said some of its branches would serve only halal beefburgers to attract more Muslim customers.

Quick’s experiment has triggered a storm of protest from politicians, who say the company is breaching France’s secular tradition. In eight restaurants it is serving only beef from cows slaughtered in accordance with Islamic practice and all pork products have been removed.

The row has once again focused attention on French sensitivities about living with a population of 5m Muslims, the largest in Europe.

In Roubaix, northern France, home to one of the outlets concerned, the town council said on Thursday it would take legal action against the fast food chain for discrimination.

The socialist-run council accused Quick of “subordinating the supply of a good, the hamburger, to belonging or not belonging to a particular religion”.

The centre-right mayor of Marseille urged Quick to offer regular as well as halal beef in the two restaurants in the city that were part of the experiment.

Bruno Le Maire, France’s agriculture minister, waded into the row, accusing the chain of “communautarisme” – which translates loosely as dividing the country up into separate ethnic communities – and of acting “contrary to the principles and spirit of the republic”.

Some right-of-centre members of the national assembly have called for a boycott of the fast-food chain.

Quick’s marketing ploy has become the latest topic in an increasingly shrill debate about French national identity launched by the centre-right government last year.

The debate has centred on the effects of immigration and its potential impact on national unity.

At the same time as discussing vague notions of national identity, French politicians have been considering a ban on the full-face veil or niqab, which a large majority of politicians regard as an unwelcome sign of the spread of fundamentalism in some Muslim quarters.

Critics say the national identity debate was launched by President Nicolas Sarkozy last year and deliberately steered on to the issue of immigration as a way of shoring up support among rightwing voters ahead of difficult regional elections next month.

It is no coincidence, the critics add, that Quick’s halal experiment was first criticised by the far-right National Front.

Some political voices have called for greater restraint when discussing such issues. Christian Vanneste, a centre-right deputy from northern France, said he wished “these anecdotes were given the importance that they deserve, which is bordering on zero”.

He added: “There have been halal butchers and kosher grocers for a very long time without anyone making a big fuss.”

The growth of halal food is big business in France. According the consultancy Solis, the market in halal meat in France will be worth €5.5bn this year, double the size of the market in organic food.

The mayor’s decision to take Quick to court over its menu change has sparked a debate in the Juvigny family, who were lunching in the Quick restaurant on the Champs Elysée in the centre of Paris on Friday. ”I think he is going too far in taking legal action,” says 18-year-old Clement, a music student. ”He should have talked to the manager first.”

But his father, Claude, believes the mayor was right to do so, though he argues it has nothing to do with questions over the role of the Muslim community in France. ”I am OK with the restaurant serving halal meat, as long as people have a choice. If we go to a Quick, we should be able to choose. They should not impose the choice on us.”

As for whether the Juvigny family would be prepared to eat halal, there seemed little debate. ”It is only a question of how the animal is killed,” says wife Sabine. ”If it tastes the same, why not?”

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2010.

This issue, reasonable accommodation, is at the root of Lucien Bouchard’s recent comments in Québec, too. Basically he accuses the PQ of sliding towards the social right zone occupied, in France, by e.g. the National Front. There are plenty of Canadians who would oppose a halal restaurant, too. Suppose a Burger King in a predominantly Muslim neighbourhood said, we serve only halal meat – now, as far as I know a ‘Whopper’ made with halal beef tastes pretty much exactly the same as one made with meat butchered in the ‘normal’ manner – would ‘we’ react any differently than the French?
 
I really don't need to know how my baconator was killed, I just want it fresh and cooked properly.  Whether Bossy died from a bolt gun to the frontal armour, or a sword forged in the fires of Mount Doom is immaterial to me, and I would hope most reasonable people too.
 
Further: See here, specifically the section titled McDonald's Israel Respects Local Culture and here.

Parts of some cities might as well be in 'foreign' countries. Why not allow private enterprise to accommodate its customers?


Edit: punctuation
 
Seen.  I'd be curious if the same applies in France to businesses owned by Hasidim who close early on Fridays to observe the sabbath.  Are they considered to be discriminating against non Jewish citizens?  Would a devout Catholic who refuses to open his restaurant on Sundays?
 
E.R. Campbell said:
now, as far as I know a ‘Whopper’ made with halal beef tastes pretty much exactly the same as one made with meat butchered in the ‘normal’ manner

You are correct - it does not taste any different.  Here in Bahrain, I can attest to that.  Coincidentally, I had a Whopper today which was slaughtered 'legally' and it tasted the same as back home.  The method of slaughter has nothing to do with the taste of the food or the service received in an establishment.

So, I guess the litmus test might be for a restaurant to serve halal food without telling anyone and then see how long it is (if ever) before someone notices - which they won't.  Soooo... is this simply racism and/or ignorance?  Speaking with my cook's hat on now, halal is no less safe than any other method of preparation. So food safety is a non issue.  There is some discussion about how ethical it is and whether or not the animal suffers in the killing process, but that does not appear to be an issue raised in the article.

I am more concerned about whether or not the cook has washed his or her hands before making my burger.
E.R. Campbell said:
There are plenty of Canadians who would oppose a halal restaurant, too.  – would ‘we’ react any differently than the French?

As per my statement above, if 'we' did react differently, I would have to conclude it was out of ignorance andthe corresponding lack of tolerance.
Cheers,

MARS
 
July 13, 2010
"Face veil ban approved by French legislators:
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/07/13/france-veil-ban.html

July 13, 2010
National Post:
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/France+approves+veil/3271507/story.html

 
If someone walked around, in Canada, with a shirt saying "Death to the Jews" or any colorful variation of hate speech, would the person be charged?
Would they be ordered to take the shirt off?

While this is a far stretch, I believe it is the same concept.
The burka is symbolicly an oppression of women.
It has no place in a country which prides itself on being secular, and which is facing a cultural crisis.
I also believe down the road that this will stifle any opposition, since it is law that the burka may not be worn, and those who wish to immigrate to France would know before hand.
 
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