Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[Brad Sallows]

Surely you’re not trying to suggest your average Gazan can safely criticize their government the way you or I can?

You or I can say practically anything about the performance of our government or suitability of those constituting it, as long as we don’t cross the threshold of threats. You live in Gaza and criticize Hamas? Odds are you’re dead, or at least abused rather awfully. What tangible actions do you suggest the average Gazan can take individually that would allow them to not be held morally culpable for what Hamas does by force of arms?

Vote against Hamas, assuming there's a less-bad alternative.

Not take to the streets cheering when Hamas commits outrages.

There are limits, but it would be absurd to propose there is nothing that can be done. Beyond that, there's violent revolution.

 

[brihard]

Vote against Hamas, assuming there's a less-bad alternative.

Not take to the streets cheering when Hamas commits outrages.

There are limits, but it would be absurd to propose there is nothing that can be done. Beyond that, there's violent revolution.

I already said vote against Hamas, or abstain from fear. I don’t know if a resident of Haza can trust the anonymity of their ballot.

Not celebrating atrocity is of course fair, and I think implicit in what I’ve been saying.

I believe that you understand there can be innocent victims in Gaza. I believe, from his words, that Quieky does not. That’s why I’m more interested in pressing him than you. I will say though that it’s very easy for us, supremely safe as we are in our domestic politics, to talk about how strangers in a strange land should resist their government when that government would murder them without hesitation.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I will say though that it’s very easy for us, supremely safe as we are in our domestic politics, to talk about how strangers in a strange land should resist their government when that government would murder them without hesitation.

Yes. But I'd find it hard to take up the position of going along with my tyrannical countrymen killing foreigners, as an outlet for my frustrations, instead of me killing my tyrannical countrymen.

 

[dimsum]

Yes. But I'd find it hard to take up the position of going along with my tyrannical countrymen killing foreigners, as an outlet for my frustrations, instead of me killing my tyrannical countrymen.

What news do Gazans get?

This is an honest question, which ties into the US (and other) political systems.

We have seen that there are echo chambers everywhere. If Gazans don’t get “the other side” and only get fed Hamas propaganda, then why wouldn’t they support them?

Also, as @brihard said, what are the consequences of not supporting Hamas in Gaza? Maybe why we’re not hearing about the dissenters is bc they don’t live too long once Hamas, et al, find them.

 

[Halifax Tar]

All of this could have been avoided if Hamas Leadership chose a different path. It can also end tomorrow if Hamas would surrender and return who they have for Hostages.

Look, civilians are going to get up caught in war and many many will be killed. It should be part of the decision making process for when we make war. It falls to the aggressor, Hamas, to make that call. And they chose their path. The death and misery of their people is on their hands.

What happened on Oct 7 wasn't a simple act of violence, it was an evil act of death, torture, rape and kidnapping. And it had to be met head on.

I only wish I could do more to support Israel.

 

[OldSolduer]

Also, as @brihard said, what are the consequences of not supporting Hamas in Gaza? Maybe why we’re not hearing about the dissenters is bc they don’t live too long once Hamas, et al, find them.

This is a feature of dictatorships everywhere - whether they are tossed in a gulag or killed. Dissent - even slight dissent - is not tolerated and is usually dealt with in a swift and "persuasive" manner.

"Comrade we hear you have been spreading Western lies amongst the proletariat. We must go for a little....hike, Da?"

 

[Eaglelord17]

This is a feature of dictatorships everywhere - whether they are tossed in a gulag or killed. Dissent - even slight dissent - is not tolerated and is usually dealt with in a swift and "persuasive" manner.

"Comrade we hear you have been spreading Western lies amongst the proletariat. We must go for a little....hike, Da?"

It also isn't just you paying the price, often times dictatorships will punish your families as well, which makes it that much harder to stand up to them.

 

[OldSolduer]

It also isn't just you paying the price, often times dictatorships will punish your families as well, which makes it that much harder to stand up to them.

Oh yes that is a favorite play of the dictator - and it does not matter if its Left or Right - they all read the same playbook, with local adaptations.

AND secret "police". They all love "Secret Police". And Gulags.

 

[Halifax Tar]

This is a feature of dictatorships everywhere - whether they are tossed in a gulag or killed. Dissent - even slight dissent - is not tolerated and is usually dealt with in a swift and "persuasive" manner.

"Comrade we hear you have been spreading Western lies amongst the proletariat. We must go for a little....hike, Da?"

The tree of Liberty must be fed with the blood of patriots, or something like that.

If the people wont stand up and accept the cost, in blood and treasure, of improving their lot then they are accepting of their current lot. I feel the west often forgets this; we cant regime change unless the people under the regime are willing to make the sacrifice required.

 

[brihard]

The tree of Liberty must be fed with the blood of patriots, or something like that.

If the people wont stand up and accept the cost, in blood and treasure, of improving their lot then they are accepting of their current lot. I feel the west often forgets this; we cant regime change unless the people under the regime are willing to make the sacrifice required.

Easy to say when we’re talking abstractly. I’ve signed my name on the line, joined up, trained, and spent a bit of time in a war. Making that choice for myself was easy, if not altogether smart. But I came through it ok.

Now, some years later, I glance over now to my right and I see my wife. To my left, my sleeping one year old son. It’s a bit harder to imagine making political choices for myself that could subject them to mortal peril in retaliation. For me, sitting here in a cottage in Canada, that’s a pure hypothetical. For a lot of people living in oppressive regimes, Gaza only being one of them, it’s an everyday reality. I can see why some people, growing up knowing nothing different and with little prospect of hope for any different, would simply try to keep their heads down and survive, and their families with them.

 

[dimsum]

Easy to say when we’re talking abstractly. I’ve signed my name on the line, joined up, trained, and spent a bit of time in a war. Making that choice for myself was easy, if not altogether smart. But I came through it ok.

Now, some years later, I glance over now to my right and I see my wife. To my left, my sleeping one year old son. It’s a bit harder to imagine making political choices for myself that could subject them to mortal peril in retaliation. For me, sitting here in a cottage in Canada, that’s a pure hypothetical. For a lot of people living in oppressive regimes, Gaza only being one of them, it’s an everyday reality. I can see why some people, growing up knowing nothing different and with little prospect of hope for any different, would simply try to keep their heads down and survive, and their families with them.

Absolutely.

Why did the non-party-affiliated civilians in WWII Germany or Japan not rise up against their governments? I’m sure not all of them were indoctrinated into the party. Some were for sure, but there were definite divisions within their society.

It sounds like Godwin’s Law but there are definite parallels in that particular space.

 

[KevinB]

Easy to say when we’re talking abstractly. I’ve signed my name on the line, joined up, trained, and spent a bit of time in a war. Making that choice for myself was easy, if not altogether smart. But I came through it ok.

Now, some years later, I glance over now to my right and I see my wife. To my left, my sleeping one year old son. It’s a bit harder to imagine making political choices for myself that could subject them to mortal peril in retaliation. For me, sitting here in a cottage in Canada, that’s a pure hypothetical. For a lot of people living in oppressive regimes, Gaza only being one of them, it’s an everyday reality. I can see why some people, growing up knowing nothing different and with little prospect of hope for any different, would simply try to keep their heads down and survive, and their families with them.

It is also much harder to hide one’s family today than in 1787 when Jefferson wrote.

While @Halifax Tar isn’t wrong in his assessment, the cost of resistance has indeed increased exponentially since Jefferson’s time.

Which makes the indifference of the West even more apparent. Additionally, after the West abandoned Afghanistan etc. I don’t think that many see us as a reliable source of support for the time that it would take to fully implement change in oppressed countries.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Easy to say when we’re talking abstractly. I’ve signed my name on the line, joined up, trained, and spent a bit of time in a war. Making that choice for myself was easy, if not altogether smart. But I came through it ok.

You and many others, myself included.

Now, some years later, I glance over now to my right and I see my wife. To my left, my sleeping one year old son. It’s a bit harder to imagine making political choices for myself that could subject them to mortal peril in retaliation. For me, sitting here in a cottage in Canada, that’s a pure hypothetical. For a lot of people living in oppressive regimes, Gaza only being one of them, it’s an everyday reality. I can see why some people, growing up knowing nothing different and with little prospect of hope for any different, would simply try to keep their heads down and survive, and their families with them.

If people don't like their positions they need to struggle to change them. Thank your ancestors; they made the conscious choices to give you the opportunities to be where you are.

It is also much harder to hide one’s family today than in 1787 when Jefferson wrote.

While @Halifax Tar isn’t wrong in his assessment, the cost of resistance has indeed increased exponentially since Jefferson’s time.

Which makes the indifference of the West even more apparent. Additionally, after the West abandoned Afghanistan etc. I don’t think that many see us as a reliable source of support for the time that it would take to fully implement change in oppressed countries.

The cost of resistance must be payed by the oppressed. We can help, we cant do it for them.

 

[brihard]

Which makes the indifference of the West even more apparent. Additionally, after the West abandoned Afghanistan etc. I don’t think that many see us as a reliable source of support for the time that it would take to fully implement change in oppressed countries.

Or the Kurds.

If people don't like their positions they need to struggle to change them. Thank your ancestors; they made the conscious choices to give you the opportunities to be where you are.

Sure, but you and I don’t live in a place where, if we are tagged as dissenters, they might rape my wife and murder her and my kid in front of me before killing me. Again, you’re taking a position that’s very easy to take and hold abstractly, but can be much harder in practice.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Sure, but you and I don’t live in a place where, if we are tagged as dissenters, they might rape my wife and murder her and my kid in front of me before killing me. Again, you’re taking a position that’s very easy to take and hold abstractly, but can be much harder in practice.

I would hope you would rise up against a government that would do that to your family. Hopefully we never have to find out.

Doing hard things is how we make things better.

 

[brihard]

I would hope you would rise up against a government that would do that to your family. Hopefully we never have to find out.

Doing hard things is how we make things better.

I would fight like hell well before it got there. If I was born into it knowing nothing different and with no prospect of change, I’d look for a way, any way, to get my family out before I did something to get them killed.

 

[KevinB]

The cost of resistance must be payed by the oppressed. We can help, we cant do it for them.

Having been in Iraq and Afghanistan, it is easy to find people who want to fight for their freedom. The issue is that we can go home at anytime, and they get left holding the bag.

As @brihard has pointed out, it is entirely one thing to risk one’s own skin, but when you risk those you love, it becomes a different equation, and our history of support is not exactly stellar.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Having been in Iraq and Afghanistan, it is easy to find people who want to fight for their freedom. The issue is that we can go home at anytime, and they get left holding the bag.

As @brihard has pointed out, it is entirely one thing to risk one’s own skin, but when you risk those you love, it becomes a different equation, and our history of support is not exactly stellar.

Yup its not an easy thing to do. I never said it was.

I would argue we went beyond support and got into being players. IMHO after 9/11 we should bombed some shit and then done what we (Not we the USA) did with the Mujahedeen in the 80s. Sponsored a resistance movement to the Taliban, i.e. Northern Alliance perhaps ?

And we (Not we the USA) should have stayed out of Iraq post 9/11.

I would fight like hell well before it got there. If I was born into it knowing nothing different and with no prospect of change, I’d look for a way, any way, to get my family out before I did something to get them killed.

Both examples are doing hard things to make your situation better. I hope most of us would be the same.

 

[Remius]

I generally don’t like what Jordan Peterson says but when he asks an audience if they were living in Nazi Germany would they have resisted or would they have been Nazis everyone stated they would resist. He called BS on all of them as most would have fallen in step for the various reasons Brihard has posted.

Everyone likes to think they would do the right thing but most don’t when there is institutional pressure on them and a lot of that is out of self preservation for them and their immediate loved ones.

 

[captloadie]

I think that we all agree that the only true way to bring about long lasting change in a nation is from within, but only as long as those being assisted want that change. If Israel truly wanted to bring change among the Palestinians, should they (and other nations like Jordan and Egypt) not have been doing more to assist those within Palestine to bring about that change. Not just finding informants so they can eliminate HVTs, but actually working to bring the more level headed leaders into power.