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Has the UN proven itself to be impotent? Who Cares? Road Ahead?

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Is the UN proven to be ineffective now? Is that what the last few days have proven?

France would Veto any motion that could eventually lead to war, and the USA would Veto anything that would not authorise war now. Both countries claimed to have the support of the majority of voting nations . . .so why threaten a Veto? We will never know what the world thinks.

Would elimination of Veto powers make the UN a more effective instrument of the international voice?
 
I think the UN has served its purpose well in the current situation, perhaps not as well as what was hope in its idealistic beginning.

The reality is every country is like an individual. Everyone has their own interests, hopes, desires,
and agenda. The very act of creating a forum where the "individuals" can talk and discuss is an achievement in and of itself. The UN has many agencies that do make a difference in the poorer parts of the world. In this respect, I think the UN is unchanged. The UN is not obligated to find solutions but facilitates the way to find solutions only if the parties seek that avenue.

The United States has its own reasons and justification for invading Iraq. The situation is much more personal to the US than France or Russia. Other countries do not agree or are not of the same opinion. At least there was a process of discussion.

The veto system is dysfunctional and self serving. Yet, in a security council of many members, concensus is hard to achieve too.

Without a process over-haul to solve all problems, I think the UN as an institution is not impotent as its potency is self-serving. Could people expect too much?
 
Here's a good summation of my support for the future of the UN.  I've heard similar stories from my Ptn Warrant on scams these clowns pulled in Somalia and Yugo.  If you ask me, Canada should pull right on out of the UN.

http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id=8D176C1C-C288-431D-A0D1-85D61A68219B

The United Nations: Unfit to govern
 
Mark Steyn  
National Post


Monday, April 28, 2003
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Iraq: Should the UN have "a" vital role, as Messrs. Bush and Blair have suggested? Or should it have "the" vital role, as M. Chirac is demanding?

If you want the short answer to that question, consider the matter of whether UN sanctions should now be lifted, so that Iraqis can sell their oil and start rebuilding their country. Here is the official Russian response:

"This decision cannot be automatic," says the Foreign Minister with a straight face. "For the Security Council to take this decision, we need to be certain whether Iraq has weapons of mass destruction or not."

Got that? Last month, the Russians were opposed to war on the grounds that there was no proof Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. This month, the Russians are opposed to lifting sanctions on the grounds that there's no proof Iraq doesn't have weapons of mass destruction.

There are a few striped-pants masochists in the State Department who enjoy this sort of thing and have spent the last four weeks pining for M. Chirac to walk all over them in steel-tipped stilettos one more time. But most Americans, given a choice between being locked in Security Council negotiations with the Russians, French and Germans or being fed feet-first into one of Saddam's industrial shredders, would find it a tough call.

You don't have to be a genius to see that, since September 11th, we have entered a transitional phase in world affairs. But reasonable people are prone to reasonableness and, as I mentioned the other day, they're especially vulnerable to the seductive power of inertia in human affairs. The wish not to have to update one's Rolodex burns fiercely in the political breast. Brent Scowcroft, George Bush Sr.'s National Security Advisor, wanted to stick with the Soviet Union even after the Politburo had given up on it. The European Union was committed to the preservation of Yugoslavia even when there had ceased to be a Yugoslavia to preserve. In the Middle East, clinging to the status quo even as it's melting and dripping on to your shoes is one reason why the region is now a problem. You may recall G. W. Hunt's famous 19th-century London music-hall song, the one that introduced a new word for the kind of militant patriotism most distasteful to the enlightened soul:

"We don't want to fight, but, by jingo if we do,

We've got the ships, we've got the men,

we've got the money too ..."

What's often overlooked is what all this flag-waving was in aid of:

"We've fought the bear before

And while we're Britons true

The Russians shall not have Constantinople."

Why? Because the British coveted it? Not at all. Her Majesty's Government was interested in cherrypicking the odd isle and emirate -- Cyprus here, Oman there -- but, other than that, they were committed to maintaining the Ottoman Empire: all that jingoistic rabble-rousing not for British glory but just to keep some other fellows' simpleton sultan on his throne. The Middle East is in its present condition in part because the European powers kept propping up the Turkish Empire decades after it had ceased to be prop-up-able. It would have been much better for all concerned if Britain had got its hands on Syria, Mesopotamia and Arabia in the 1870s rather than four decades later. But, even in the later stages of the Great War, after the British had comprehensively sliced and diced Turkey from top to toe, London's official position was that somehow the Ottoman Empire should be glued back together and propped up till the next war.

Now another Middle Eastern war has come and gone, and the bien-pensants are anxious that once again an obsolescent institution be glued back together and propped in position. This time it's the UN. The editors of Britain's Spectator concede it has more than its share of "irritating do-gooders," but surely even that's a euphemism: The do-gooders are, in fact, do-badders. The "oil-for-palaces" program (as Tommy Franks calls it) is a grotesque boondoggle even by UN standards: It was good for bureaucrats, good for Saddam's European bankers, good for his British stooge George Galloway, but bad for the Iraqi people. A humanitarian operation meant to help a dictator's beleagured subjects has instead enriched the UN by over $1-billion (officially) in "administrative" costs. There's no oversight, no auditing, nothing most businesses would recognize as a legitimate invoice, and, although non-essential items can only be approved by the Secretary-General himself, Kofi Annan (Mister Legitimacy) has personally signed off on practically anything Saddam requested, including "boats," from France.

You don't have to agree (though I do) with George Jonas that the UN is a fully fledged member of the axis of evil to recognize that there's little point in going to war to install yet another branch office of UNSCAM. If the problem is America's image in the Arab world, in what way does it help to confine the Stars and Stripes brand to unpleasant things like bombs while insisting all the nice post-war reconstructive stuff be clearly labelled with the UN flag? If the answer is that that's the price you pay for healing the rift with Old Europe, that presupposes Old Europe is interested in healing it. Tony Blair may be keen, but the Continentals have different agendas. Will the Belgian government approve the complaint against Tommy Franks for "genocide"? The petition accuses the General of "inaction in the face of hospital pillaging," which apparently meets the Belgian definition of genocide. Unlike the deaths of over three million people, which is the lowball figure for those who've died in the current civil war in the Congo -- or, as I still like to think of it, the Belgian Congo.

The Congo's civil war is everything the NIONists (Not In Our Name) claimed Bush's war would be: There were more civilian deaths in a few hours in Ituri province last week than in the entire Iraq campaign; while the blowhards at Oxfam and co -- the Big Consciences lobby -- insist on pretending that Iraq is a humanitarian disaster, there's an actual humanitarian disaster going on in the Congo, complete with millions of children dead from disease and malnutrition. While the lefties warned that Ariel Sharon would use the cover of the Iraq war to slaughter the Palestinians, the Congolese are being slaughtered, and you don't need any cover. Because nobody cares. Because no arrogant Americans or sinister Zionists are involved.

The Congo is a useful reminder of the laziness of the term "Western imperialism." There's Belgian imperialism, which, as the Congo continues to demonstrate, is a sewer. And then there's Anglo-Saxon nation-building, which, from India to Belize, works quite well, given the chance. St Lucia, Mauritius, Tuvalu and Papua New Guinea, to pluck four at random, have enjoyed the attributes of a free society a lot longer than, say, Greece, Portugal and Spain, which were dictatorships a quarter-century ago. The argument of my old friend Ghazi Algosaibi, the Saudi Minister of Water, that freedom is "European" is not borne out by the facts. If Latin Americans, Pacific islanders, and even the Muslims of south Asia can live in liberty, it's surely a little racist to suggest that Arabs are uniquely incapable of so doing. Had Britain begun administering Mesopotamia in 1877 instead of 1917, we wouldn't even be asking the question.

But if you want to turn a long-shot into a surefire failure, there's no better way than handing post-war Iraq from the Americans to the UN -- the successors to the Belgian school of nation-building. At best, you'll end up with Cambodia, where the UN has colluded in the nullification of democracy, or the Balkans, where once-functioning jurisdictions are reduced to the level of geopolitical tenements with the UN as slum landlord in perpetuity. At worst, you'll wind up with the West Bank "refugee" "camps,"the most extreme reminder of how the UN has little interest in solving problems, only in establishing bureaucracies to manage them. Washington should ignore the French, dare the Russians to veto, let the Iraqis turn on the spigots, and pay no attention to "do-gooders."
 
If not the UN, then who becomes the arbitrator. The US and their vested interests?
 
Theres a saying that says; The US makes the supper and the UN washes the dishes. The UN has always been around for humatarian aids. Maybe it doesnt have the political and military power but it did a heck of a good job to support poor countries in their fight against poverty, injustice, illness and malnultrition. The UN has many organisation that help poor countries to develop and taking it out is cutting the lifeline for those countries.
 
I am sure anyone will tell you, that seeing UN aid in action first hand, they might not live up to your expectations.
Anyways here what your arbitrator has been up to keeping US interests in check....

http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id=924ABDCD-83DD-456F-BFFB-2F35557468BA

Because dictators have human rights too

Steven Edwards
National Post


Wednesday, April 30, 2003
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UNITED NATIONS - For human rights advocates, yesterday‘s session of a UN council on rights was like a nightmare come true.

Members elected or re-elected a slew of countries with appalling human rights records to the UN Human Rights Commission, the world body‘s foremost rights watchdog.

The election comes four days after the commission ended its annual six-week session, during which members formed blocs to prevent discussion of alleged rights violations in Zimbabwe.

They also ended scrutiny of Sudan and rejected a resolution condemning Russia‘s record in Chechnya.

Presented with a resolution on Cuba, they failed to approve an amendment criticizing the country‘s crackdown on the opposition, and only narrowly approved a call for Havana to receive a human rights investigator.

The final day of the session saw Muslim countries band together to block the commission‘s first-ever consideration of rights for homosexuals similar to those already won in Canada and other Western countries.

Among those retaining their seats in yesterday‘s election were Russia and Cuba, which have a habit of ignoring the commission‘s rulings against them. New members with equally questionable backgrounds include Saudi Arabia, Nigeria and Egypt.

The United States walked out in protest at the re-election of Cuba, suggesting it was "like putting Al Capone in charge of bank security."

"It was an outrage for us because we view Cuba as the worst violator of human rights in this hemisphere," said Sichan Siv, U.S. ambassador to the the UN Economic and Social Council, which conducted yesterday‘s election.

As the Human Rights Commission met in Geneva a few weeks ago, he noted, Cuban authorities "rounded up 78 opposition leaders, independent journalists, librarians, and put them in jail and sentenced them to up to 20 years in prison."

At the same time, Cuba arrested three alleged hijackers seeking to escape to Florida and put them before a firing squad within a week. "No trial, no justice, no nothing," Mr. Siv said.

Even before the latest elections, Human Rights Watch, the New York-based monitoring group, described the UN Human Rights Commission as a "who‘s who" of rights abusers.

Canada, the United States and several European countries are among the commission‘s 53 members, but are frequently outvoted.

"Cuba and Russia each have very serious human rights problems and have failed to co-operate with the commission despite many resolutions against them," said Joanna Weschler, UN representative for Human Rights Watch. "It‘s outrageous that they should be rewarded for this performance with another term on the commission."

Yesterday‘s election was conducted by the UN‘s 54-member Economic and Social Council, which is responsible for improving the quality of people‘s lives.

The commission has urged Cuba to admit a UN rights investigator for years, to no avail. Cuba responded to the latest request by again refusing, then claiming a "moral victory" for having avoided a stronger condemnation.

Russia‘s avoidance of criticism this year is an indication of how a strategy of winning a seat on the commission along with other abusers can render it ineffective.

The commission is meant to identify human rights abuses, then pressure governments into changing their behaviour.

Canada, which will seek re-election in 2004, had backed a Brazilian initiative to have the commission express "deep concern at the occurrence of violations of human rights in the world against persons on the grounds of their sexual orientation."

While Western countries have ended laws criminalizing private consensual gay sex, most Muslim states and some non-Muslim developing countries have not followed suit. Penalties range from imprisonment to death.

The Brazilian proposal was too much for Libya, Pakistan, Malaysia, Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

With Libya chairing the session, the group engineered a filibuster that resulted in the debate being postponed until next year.

"We will not allow this commission to impose that value system," said Shaukat Umer, the Pakistani ambassador. "You can defeat our amendments. We have a hundred others."

Muslim countries frequently use their seats on the commission to push through rulings against Israel, but rejected Canada‘s proposal to have the session resume in a few weeks to debate homosexual rights.

"At least it will be on the agenda for next year," said a Canadian official optimistically.

Observers said the Muslim states came up with any excuse to play for time.

"It was a circus," said Andrew Srulevitch, executive director of Geneva-based UN Watch, another monitoring group.

"The Libyan chair accepted no end of questions about procedure. What does this rule mean? What does that rule mean? When someone suggested shortening the lunch break from two hours to one hour to give more time to debate, the Malaysians said that the Muslim delegates had to go and pray, because it was a Friday."
 
So th4 question if the UN is dismatled, would that create a vacuum, and if it did who woyuld fill it, out would the UN go out like a wimper and nobody would notice.

The UN is far from perfect, but I don‘t hear any alternatives.
 
I do think UN is going down the same road as the League of Nations.

It seems that when US withdraws support for a global institution, it goes down the hill...

UN has its problems, but UN has also done a lot of good, and I think it‘s still worth having around, just needs to be fixed.

And it seems that NATO is falling apart too...
 
Victor Davis Hanson comments on the UN penchant for inefficiency, corruption and dictator coddling, concluding that the UN is on its way out, and will end not with a bang but with a whimper (in the words of TS Eliot).

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005658


A similar article from David Brooks today comments on the futility of the UN multilateral approach, as demonstrated with the handling of the current Sudan crisis.   Brooks argues this is yet another in a long line of UN failures to act in defense of humanity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/25/opinion/25brooks.html


This reminds of the Ralph Peters argument from a couple of years ago.   In essence Peters said a UN that has Libya chairing the Human Rights commission (as one of many examples) is a spent and useless organization.   He advocated a league of responsible and/or democratic nations to replace the ineffective and inefficient UN.   A league that would have the courage and the moral authority to make the hard decisions wrt interventions in the world.
 
From my point of view, its hard for us to know what happens in the UN and behind closed
doors.  We understand loosely the mandate of the UN, its charters, and various positions
held by countires and regions.  We see proceedings and opinions in the news and events
around the world and wonder what the heck is going wrong.

From another point of view, it is an understatement to say it is a challenge to get a consensus
from 200 individuals let alone sovereign countries.  If a consensus is reached, then to acquisition
of the resources to carry out the actions or recommendations. 

Is it possible the general perception that the UN must always come to an consensus or solution
given varied opinions, agendas, and motives is naive?  To me, the UN succeeds not because of its
results, but it provides an forum and a method to solving problems. If blame should be cast, it should
be on members of the UN for their own selfishness (warranted or not) and not the UN itself.


 
Stop that,  >:D 39--stop that right now. Leave poor little Khofi alone and behave yourself!!


This reminds of the Ralph Peters argument from a couple of years ago.  In essence Peters said a UN that has Libya chairing the Human Rights commission (as one of many examples) is a spent and useless organization.  He advocated a league of responsible and/or democratic nations to replace the ineffective and inefficient UN.  A league that would have the courage and the moral authority to make the hard decisions wrt interventions in the world.

Ok. Ummmm-and just what countries would those be. Wait....let me guess. OK. Did I get it? Did I get it?


Not a very PC thought,  >:D 39. Go back in your pogue corner. ( I can say that because I am a warrior pogue)  :rage: ;D

Cheers.


 
2 people at a table can come to a decision

3 people at a table might be able to come to an unhappy decision

200 people at a table - barroom brawl breaks out over who's going to pick up the tab.

UN and EU, no hopers.

Cheers.
 
Bert said:
From my point of view, its hard for us to know what happens in the UN and behind closed
doors.   We understand loosely the mandate of the UN, its charters, and various positions
held by countires and regions.   We see proceedings and opinions in the news and events
around the world and wonder what the heck is going wrong.

But it's not too hard too know what isn't happening at the UN.   The track record in the last 15 years is not stellar.

Bert said:
From another point of view, it is an understatement to say it is a challenge to get a consensus
from 200 individuals let alone sovereign countries.   If a consensus is reached, then to acquisition
of the resources to carry out the actions or recommendations.  

Is it possible the general perception that the UN must always come to an consensus or solution
given varied opinions, agendas, and motives is naive?   To me, the UN succeeds not because of its
results, but it provides an forum and a method to solving problems. If blame should be cast, it should
be on members of the UN for their own selfishness (warranted or not) and not the UN itself.

I guess I would ask if the UN is actually succeeding at anything?   What problems is it solving?   I think it may have served a purpose in the Cold War as a means of keeping two opposing superpowers at a table talking.   Today?
 
Having been on a few UN Ops (as many on this board have been), I can only echo  >:D 39's comments. If the UN can not prove itself relevant in a geopolitical, crisis-action sense, it is probably irrelevant except to deal with social welfare issues. To be fair, the US has probably dealt it a body blow over Iraq. Maybe we just expect too much from it: after all, it isn't really a government. Cheers.
 
PBI,

Ah, but therein lies the rub.   The UN as currently configured cannot even prove iteself worthy in a global "crisis action sense".   Heck - the UN can't even cobble together a timely and meaningful disaster-assistance package for it's latest "flavour of the day" in Haiti.

The UN is a "has been", right up there in terms of relevance with the League of Nations.   To hang our natiional hat upon such a manifestly dysfunctional institution is to invite irrelevance followed promptly by defeat.   The UN has become an increasing joke - it is nothing more than a trivial mouth-piece forum for nations which lack the wherewithal to actually DO something about their own plights or those of their neighbors.  

Even Paul Martin had the "liberal 'nads" to tear a hypocritical strip off the UN over the Sudan situation last week.   And look where that is headed.   The answer would be.....nowhere.   If we as Canadians were serious about our national/humanitarian hand-wringing over the ongoing genocide in Darufar, then we would be deploying military forces.   But of course (rather conveniently), there is nothing left in the shop window.   We've been exhausted by the very people who have the utter gall to chastise the world community for their lack of action.   Oh, the irony.....
 
 
Perhaps, but who do you think represents issues in the UN?  The UN has its own staff and agencies, yet
the members of the UN are representatives of the each country's government.  Of course each
government/country has its own agenda, interests, and biases.  Its not so different getting 200 people together
to form a consensus.  The UN is the forum and the method, but not the central entity that creates solutions.
Solutions come from the joint actions and consensus of the members.

Each country by being a member of the UN agrees to the UN Charter and certain obligations.  Good luck enforcing
that.  It doesn't force a country to act, agree, or decide on global issues or crisis.

Its not alot different from Canadian Parliament.  I have no idea whether my Federal MP votes in the Legislature
using the consensus of the Riding or his/her own judgement.  They argue out issues in the House of Commons
and come to a mostly partisan conclusion by a vote of ayes or nays. 

Anyways, the UN matters.  I speculate alot of potential world problems have been addressed either formally or
informally in the theatres or back rooms of the UN.  The responsibility lies with the collective nature of the
member countries and the best self-centered consensus they can achieve.  Resolutions of this nature I believe
cannot be taken for granted.
 
  The UN, by its very definition, will always be irrelevant... The posters who stated you will never achieve a consensus with 200 delegates working at cross purposes are absolutely correct. In fact, most of the member states hold values that are completely at odds with Western democracy; why else would we see such obstruction, wilful blindness, and lack of action on such issues as human rights abuses committed by member states? (unless the accused is a Western democratic nation; then the UN can't pump out resolutions fast enough...) Hence, we have had total inaction on issues such as Rwanda, Yugo, Sudan, etc. Meanwhile, this organisation busies itself with sending monitors to the U.S. to ensure the elections are "fair", condemns Israel for defending itself against organisations that want to annihlate it, and complains nations such as Canada practice systematic "racism" against their native peoples... What a farce! ::)
  No wonder there is a growing lobby in the USA to pull out of the UN. They and few other democratic   countries pay most of the bills, and yet are constantly reviled by nations whose sorry track records give them absolutely no right to critisise others... My feeling is that the quickest way to reform the UN, short of abolishing it, would be for Western nations to simply stop picking up the tab...
 
Everyone keeps writing as if the peons in the General Assembly held sway.  The real decisions at the UN are made in the Security Council.  Reforming that modest body to minimize obstructionism would do a great deal to reform the UN.
 
The Question there Brad, is who is going to lead the charge to give up the veto?  Even for the two countries most inclined to give up the veto, the UK and France, even if their politicians decided to give it up it would be political death at home.  The Russians and the Chinese aren't lining up to hand over their power, nor is the US likely to even if, as I do, you consider it a benign power.  The Russians and the Chinese perceive the veto as an opportunity to protect themselves against the US and control the actions of the US.  The US sees the veto as its opportunity to prevent the rest of the international community ganging up on the world's number one target (or sole super-power if you like).

Sometimes, the only way to affect change is to admit that what is, is not working.  Everybody needs to stand up, close down the existing forum, walk away and then have a reorg.  In the interim some very hard lessons will be visited on many parties.  People will be reminded of lessons forgotten and others will learn new lessons.
 
I've always thought that the concept behind the UN was a good idea, and that it was at least trying to do a good job...ok,ok, we all know of its' many faults,shortcomeings,the corruption,incompetence and so forth......but at least it was worth a try. But if putting Libya in the head seat of the Human Rights Commision  wasn't bad enough then the straw that broke the camels' back for me was the huge amount of applause that Robert(Gangsta)Mugabe got the other day for his speech. To me it just showed the moral corruption and political partisanship of the members. Might be time to lose the UN....or severly re-organize it, in my humble opinion.
Gene
 
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