Eye In The Sky
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Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
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Eye In The Sky
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Journeyman said:
I've not heard anything details on anything 'ceremonial' yet at all.
Eye In The Sky
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Halifax Tar said:
There are many, many people who have heavy hearts and are thinking of you all.
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Halifax Tar said:
Hearts go out to the affected families and crew. Please let us know if there is anything we can do. :yellow:
Eye In The Sky
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MilEME09 said:
So saying a fleet is grounded; that is not a valid term or status? What is the difference? I am sure people are curious.
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Eye In The Sky said:
As the CDS explained it, and I think I've heard it used, is grounded is that the aircraft is not airworthy, and cannot be flown. Operational pause is the Wing us choosing not to fly it, except for pressing operational needs; eg a SAR where there is eminent risk to human life if note flown.
There could be many reasons for an operational pause, including just giving the aircrew some time to reflect.
Eye In The Sky
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I have a pretty good idea between "op pause" and "grounded". I was hoping to make a point about "lanes" and staying in them...
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MilEME09 said:
I'm not convinced that those "experts" are doing anything other than speculating, even though they are described in a way which would suggest they are still connected to the Wing.
One of them was speculating the day before that it would be impossible to recover the CVR / FDR in that depth of water, obviously unaware that it detaches in the same unit as the ELT. There were other inaccuracies which show he doesn't have "inside" information, made on Thurs then publically discounted since.
Sometimes when details aren't being released for good reason (the flight safety team will be able to analyze the CVR / FDR soon which is a good reason to wait) they turn to "experts" which are in their list for opinion to fill the gap. Somebody who may have been an expert 20 years ago may not still have any significant level of knowledge.
Eye In The Sky
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Baz said:
Yes, and it is challenging sometimes to not reply or clarify.
Ref sarcasm...perhaps. It just gets tiresome when people who don't know anything about military aviation say things they don't truly understand. Or can't even get the picture of the helicopter right.
Here's a quote from another article...
daftandbarmy
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Halifax Tar said:
High Flight
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long delirious, burning blue,
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high unsurpassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.
Pilot Officer John Gillespie Magee, RCAF
b.1922 d.1941 (in a mid-air collision)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gillespie_Magee_Jr.
CTV has published a story based on an interview with VAdm Mark Norman (retired). It is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
Mark Norman: 'Two possible issues' behind military helicopter crash
Brooklyn Neustaeter
CTVNews.ca Writer
@bneustaeter Contact
Published Sunday, May 3, 2020 11:01AM EDT
TORONTO -- As investigators try to determine what caused a Canadian military helicopter to crash, retired vice-admiral and the former vice chief of the defence staff Mark Norman believes the reason could be one of two possible scenarios.
In an interview with CTV's Question Period on Sunday, Norman said the crash was likely caused by either a mechanical issue or human error.
"Fundamentally, something like this happens because there's a bizarre environmental situation, there's some sort of mechanical problem, there's human factors or some sort of military action, and [military action] doesn't seem to be the case in this situation," Norman said.
"We've had reports that the weather has been very good -- and it was at the time of the incident -- so I think we're down to two possible scenarios: some sort of mechanical issue or some sort of human factor issue."
The military Cyclone helicopter crash took the lives of six military personnel when it went down Wednesday in the Mediterranean Sea as it was returning to HMCS Fredericton.
The helicopter was part of the Fredericton's NATO mission and went down while concluding a training exercise.
Former senior Canadian Armed Forces officers say images from the area show the debris field of the crash is not large and the oil slick isn't widely spread out, suggesting the helicopter struck the waters with sudden and massive velocity.
Norman said he does not think the crash was caused by a lack of training from its crew.
"It really is too early to speculate and I don't think people should be thinking that this was a training issue per se. These crews are exceptionally well-trained. They have a lot of experience, and our military goes to great lengths to ensure that when we deploy an asset such as this on an operational mission that everybody is as absolutely prepared as they can be, so I don't think that's an issue," Norman said.
Despite the crash, Norman said he and the military have confidence in the Cyclone helicopter.
"I think it's a great aircraft but we need to remember [it's] a very complicated aircraft -- not just the back-end, the mission system, but also the avionics themselves and the flying of the aircraft," Norman said. "This is 21st-century fly-by-wire technology, and that in and of itself is going to make the investigation difficult, because they're going to have to look at a lot of the technical data associated with the different modes that the aircraft may or may not have been in at the time of the accident."
The Canadian military began using the Cyclone helicopters for training purposes in 2015, after more than a decade of expensive delays with the manufacturer Sikorsky. It wasn't until 2018 that the military began using them in real missions.
The military was supposed to have received 28 Cyclones from Sikorsky in November 2008, but to date has only received 18. In 2012, then-defence minister Peter MacKay called it "the worst procurement in history."
"It's important that we not try and conflate, the history of the procurement with the capability of the platform itself," Norman said. "MacKay may well have been right, but that doesn't mean that it's not an exceptional piece of equipment, and that it has the full confidence of those people who have been flying it up to this moment."
All of the military's Cyclone helicopters have been grounded while a flight investigation team works in the region to determine the cause of the crash. The Cyclone's flight-data and voice recorders have been recovered and will soon be returned to Canada for analysis.
"Unfortunately, these types of things do happen, and the military will take a very measured, deliberate and facts based approach to this, and if there's something to learn from the investigation they want those lessons immediately," Norman said.
"That's really one of the fundamental reasons why they go to the lengths they do to do the investigation; not just to find out what happened but to ensure that if it is something where they can change procedure then they'll do so."
Mark Norman: 'Two possible issues' behind military helicopter crash
Brooklyn Neustaeter
CTVNews.ca Writer
@bneustaeter Contact
Published Sunday, May 3, 2020 11:01AM EDT
TORONTO -- As investigators try to determine what caused a Canadian military helicopter to crash, retired vice-admiral and the former vice chief of the defence staff Mark Norman believes the reason could be one of two possible scenarios.
In an interview with CTV's Question Period on Sunday, Norman said the crash was likely caused by either a mechanical issue or human error.
"Fundamentally, something like this happens because there's a bizarre environmental situation, there's some sort of mechanical problem, there's human factors or some sort of military action, and [military action] doesn't seem to be the case in this situation," Norman said.
"We've had reports that the weather has been very good -- and it was at the time of the incident -- so I think we're down to two possible scenarios: some sort of mechanical issue or some sort of human factor issue."
The military Cyclone helicopter crash took the lives of six military personnel when it went down Wednesday in the Mediterranean Sea as it was returning to HMCS Fredericton.
The helicopter was part of the Fredericton's NATO mission and went down while concluding a training exercise.
Former senior Canadian Armed Forces officers say images from the area show the debris field of the crash is not large and the oil slick isn't widely spread out, suggesting the helicopter struck the waters with sudden and massive velocity.
Norman said he does not think the crash was caused by a lack of training from its crew.
"It really is too early to speculate and I don't think people should be thinking that this was a training issue per se. These crews are exceptionally well-trained. They have a lot of experience, and our military goes to great lengths to ensure that when we deploy an asset such as this on an operational mission that everybody is as absolutely prepared as they can be, so I don't think that's an issue," Norman said.
Despite the crash, Norman said he and the military have confidence in the Cyclone helicopter.
"I think it's a great aircraft but we need to remember [it's] a very complicated aircraft -- not just the back-end, the mission system, but also the avionics themselves and the flying of the aircraft," Norman said. "This is 21st-century fly-by-wire technology, and that in and of itself is going to make the investigation difficult, because they're going to have to look at a lot of the technical data associated with the different modes that the aircraft may or may not have been in at the time of the accident."
The Canadian military began using the Cyclone helicopters for training purposes in 2015, after more than a decade of expensive delays with the manufacturer Sikorsky. It wasn't until 2018 that the military began using them in real missions.
The military was supposed to have received 28 Cyclones from Sikorsky in November 2008, but to date has only received 18. In 2012, then-defence minister Peter MacKay called it "the worst procurement in history."
"It's important that we not try and conflate, the history of the procurement with the capability of the platform itself," Norman said. "MacKay may well have been right, but that doesn't mean that it's not an exceptional piece of equipment, and that it has the full confidence of those people who have been flying it up to this moment."
All of the military's Cyclone helicopters have been grounded while a flight investigation team works in the region to determine the cause of the crash. The Cyclone's flight-data and voice recorders have been recovered and will soon be returned to Canada for analysis.
"Unfortunately, these types of things do happen, and the military will take a very measured, deliberate and facts based approach to this, and if there's something to learn from the investigation they want those lessons immediately," Norman said.
"That's really one of the fundamental reasons why they go to the lengths they do to do the investigation; not just to find out what happened but to ensure that if it is something where they can change procedure then they'll do so."
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Poignant.
MilEME09
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For those interested or near by, according to what u have read on social media the Repatriation flight is scheduled to arrive CFB Trenton at 1430 HRs, Wednesday May 6th, estimated time of departure from Trenton would be 1530.
According to posts on social media, looks like people are trying to get out while maintaining social distancing for the High way of heros
According to posts on social media, looks like people are trying to get out while maintaining social distancing for the High way of heros
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Pip Pip Pip Pip....
Secure Flying Stations.
Damn.
Rest peacefully Stalker and crew.
Secure Flying Stations.
Damn.
Rest peacefully Stalker and crew.
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