Laser distance air-bursting bullets? What do you think?
- Thread starter NSDreamer
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All I could think of when I saw the subject of this thread was 'Lasers! PEWPEWPEW!'
Now I'm going to read the article and edit my post into a real reply.
Edit: That's pretty cool. The accuracy of this will prevent the need for artillery and therefore lessen collateral damage. I'm all about protecting innocent civilians, and this new weapon may help ensure that fewer become casualties during a firefight.
Now I'm going to read the article and edit my post into a real reply.
Edit: That's pretty cool. The accuracy of this will prevent the need for artillery and therefore lessen collateral damage. I'm all about protecting innocent civilians, and this new weapon may help ensure that fewer become casualties during a firefight.
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TN2IC said:
Eyes on the road trucker!
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NSDreamer said:
http://www.dailytech.com/US+Armys+XM25+Fires+Bullets+that+Target+Enemies+Behind+Cover/article20272.htm
I believe the website means enough to outfit one man in every section/platoon.
I am going to make a few observations/queries which I hope that someone far more knowledgeable than I can answer:
a. the projectile can not be very large, so the explosive charge and the splinter pattern both must be fairly limited. It seems to me that it would only be about half of that of the 40mm round.
b. in order to keep recoil to an acceptable level, the velocity is probably quite low. Given the use of a laser range finder and a ballistic computer along with the low velocity, an accurate sight picture would seem to be very important.
c. the combination of a and b make target location and identification terribly important.
d. in a SOP to the Technoviking, this might seem to be even less flexible than the AGL.
What have I missed?
a. the projectile can not be very large, so the explosive charge and the splinter pattern both must be fairly limited. It seems to me that it would only be about half of that of the 40mm round.
b. in order to keep recoil to an acceptable level, the velocity is probably quite low. Given the use of a laser range finder and a ballistic computer along with the low velocity, an accurate sight picture would seem to be very important.
c. the combination of a and b make target location and identification terribly important.
d. in a SOP to the Technoviking, this might seem to be even less flexible than the AGL.
What have I missed?
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Old Sweat said:
Smart bullet explodes with the force of a hand grenade (Source: Dailymail)
If this is equivilant to say a frag grenade. Lethal radius shold be around 18 ft as I recall. Though I would assume it's packed with less shrapanel so I'm not sure how that would affect its range.
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This may help explain things.
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/...an/?test=faces
Since the dawn of modern warfare, the best way to stay alive in the face of incoming fire has been to take cover behind a wall. But thanks to a game-changing "revolutionary" rifle, the U.S. Army has made that tactic dead on arrival. Now the enemy can run, but he can't hide.
After years of development, the U.S. Army has unleashed a new weapon in Afghanistan -- the XM25 Counter Defilade Target Engagement System, a high-tech rifle that can be programmed so that its 25-mm. ammunition does not necessarily explode on impact. Instead, it can be set to detonate either in front of or behind a target, meaning it literally will go through a wall before it explodes and kills the enemy.
It also has a range of roughly 2,300 feet -- nearly the length of eight football fields -- making it possible to fire at targets well past the range of the rifles and carbines that most soldiers carry today.
Lt. Col. Christopher Lehner, project manager for the semi-automatic, shoulder-fired weapon system for the U.S. Army's Program Executive Office Soldier, said that the XM25's capability alone is such a "game-changer" that it'll lead to new ways of fighting on the battlefield, beginning this month in Afghanistan.
"With this weapon system, we take away cover from [enemy targets] forever," Lehner told FoxNews.com on Wednesday. "Tactics are going to have to be rewritten. The only thing we can see [enemies] being able to do is run away."
And that would make it much easier for U.S. troops to put them in their sights, either with that same XM25 or another direct-fire weapon.
With this new weapon in the Army's arsenal, Lehner said, "We're much more effective, by many magnitudes, than current weapons at the squad level. We're able to shoot farther and more accurately, and our soldiers can stay behind sandbags, walls or rocks, which provides them protection from fire."
Lehner said the first XM25s were distributed to combat units in Afghanistan this month. The 12-pound, 29-inch system, which was designed by Minnesota's Alliant Techsystems, costs up to $35,000 per unit and, while highly sophisticated, is so easy to use that soldiers become proficient within minutes.
"That's how intuitively easy it is, even though it's high-tech," Lehner said. "All a soldier needs to know how to do is laze the target. It decimates anything within its lethal radius."
Once the trigger is pulled and the round leaves the barrel, a computer chip inside the projectile communicates exactly how far it has traveled, allowing for precise detonation behind or ahead of any target.
"We have found that this has really made our soldiers so much more accurate and being able to deliver this high-explosive round in about five seconds," said Lehner, taking into account the time it takes a soldier to laze, aim and fire the weapon. Once fired, Lehner said, the round will reach its target in a "second or two," meaning the entire process from aiming to direct hit lasts less than 10 seconds, compared to 10 minutes or longer for traditional mortar fire.
A potential battlefield scenario, according to Army officials, might go something like this:
-- A patrol encounters an enemy combatant in a walled Afghan village who fires an AK-47 intermittently from behind cover, exposing himself only for a brief second to fire.
-- The patrol's leader calls for the XM25 gunman, who uses the weapon's laser range finder to calculate the distance to the target.
-- He then uses an incremental button located near the trigger to add 1 meter to the round's distance, since the enemy is hiding behind a wall.
-- The round is fired, and it explodes with a blast comparable to a hand grenade past the wall and above the enemy.
"This is revolutionary for many reasons," Lehner said, citing increased efficiency, safety and lethality. "This is the first time we're putting smart technology in an individual weapon system for our soldiers. We feel it's very important to field this because it keeps us ahead of the technological curve of our potential enemies. We have a feeling other people will try to copy us -- this is the future."
Lehner said the Army plans to purchase at least 12,500 XM25 systems beginning next year -- enough for one system in each infantry squad and Special Forces team.
The military isn't overly concerned that the weapon might be captured by the enemy, because they would be unable to obtain its highly specialized ammunition, batteries and other components. Lehner said he expects other nations will try to copy its technology, but it will be very cost-prohibitive.
"This is a game-changer," Lehner said. "The enemy has learned to get cover, for hundreds if not thousands of years.
"Well, they can't do that anymore. We're taking that cover from them and there's only two outcomes: We're going to get you behind that cover or force you to flee. So no matter what, we gotcha."
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/...#ixzz16gMXKdf4 __________________
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/...an/?test=faces
Since the dawn of modern warfare, the best way to stay alive in the face of incoming fire has been to take cover behind a wall. But thanks to a game-changing "revolutionary" rifle, the U.S. Army has made that tactic dead on arrival. Now the enemy can run, but he can't hide.
After years of development, the U.S. Army has unleashed a new weapon in Afghanistan -- the XM25 Counter Defilade Target Engagement System, a high-tech rifle that can be programmed so that its 25-mm. ammunition does not necessarily explode on impact. Instead, it can be set to detonate either in front of or behind a target, meaning it literally will go through a wall before it explodes and kills the enemy.
It also has a range of roughly 2,300 feet -- nearly the length of eight football fields -- making it possible to fire at targets well past the range of the rifles and carbines that most soldiers carry today.
Lt. Col. Christopher Lehner, project manager for the semi-automatic, shoulder-fired weapon system for the U.S. Army's Program Executive Office Soldier, said that the XM25's capability alone is such a "game-changer" that it'll lead to new ways of fighting on the battlefield, beginning this month in Afghanistan.
"With this weapon system, we take away cover from [enemy targets] forever," Lehner told FoxNews.com on Wednesday. "Tactics are going to have to be rewritten. The only thing we can see [enemies] being able to do is run away."
And that would make it much easier for U.S. troops to put them in their sights, either with that same XM25 or another direct-fire weapon.
With this new weapon in the Army's arsenal, Lehner said, "We're much more effective, by many magnitudes, than current weapons at the squad level. We're able to shoot farther and more accurately, and our soldiers can stay behind sandbags, walls or rocks, which provides them protection from fire."
Lehner said the first XM25s were distributed to combat units in Afghanistan this month. The 12-pound, 29-inch system, which was designed by Minnesota's Alliant Techsystems, costs up to $35,000 per unit and, while highly sophisticated, is so easy to use that soldiers become proficient within minutes.
"That's how intuitively easy it is, even though it's high-tech," Lehner said. "All a soldier needs to know how to do is laze the target. It decimates anything within its lethal radius."
Once the trigger is pulled and the round leaves the barrel, a computer chip inside the projectile communicates exactly how far it has traveled, allowing for precise detonation behind or ahead of any target.
"We have found that this has really made our soldiers so much more accurate and being able to deliver this high-explosive round in about five seconds," said Lehner, taking into account the time it takes a soldier to laze, aim and fire the weapon. Once fired, Lehner said, the round will reach its target in a "second or two," meaning the entire process from aiming to direct hit lasts less than 10 seconds, compared to 10 minutes or longer for traditional mortar fire.
A potential battlefield scenario, according to Army officials, might go something like this:
-- A patrol encounters an enemy combatant in a walled Afghan village who fires an AK-47 intermittently from behind cover, exposing himself only for a brief second to fire.
-- The patrol's leader calls for the XM25 gunman, who uses the weapon's laser range finder to calculate the distance to the target.
-- He then uses an incremental button located near the trigger to add 1 meter to the round's distance, since the enemy is hiding behind a wall.
-- The round is fired, and it explodes with a blast comparable to a hand grenade past the wall and above the enemy.
"This is revolutionary for many reasons," Lehner said, citing increased efficiency, safety and lethality. "This is the first time we're putting smart technology in an individual weapon system for our soldiers. We feel it's very important to field this because it keeps us ahead of the technological curve of our potential enemies. We have a feeling other people will try to copy us -- this is the future."
Lehner said the Army plans to purchase at least 12,500 XM25 systems beginning next year -- enough for one system in each infantry squad and Special Forces team.
The military isn't overly concerned that the weapon might be captured by the enemy, because they would be unable to obtain its highly specialized ammunition, batteries and other components. Lehner said he expects other nations will try to copy its technology, but it will be very cost-prohibitive.
"This is a game-changer," Lehner said. "The enemy has learned to get cover, for hundreds if not thousands of years.
"Well, they can't do that anymore. We're taking that cover from them and there's only two outcomes: We're going to get you behind that cover or force you to flee. So no matter what, we gotcha."
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/...#ixzz16gMXKdf4 __________________
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Since we don't know how to properly employ those weapons that we do have, I can understand why a "sniper in a trench" cannot be suppressed by aimed fire, and then closed with and destroyed. It seems that all the new weapons are Wunderwaffen that take away that need.
Nice weapon and all, but at 20,000 a system, it's not sustainable. At least not now. In the meantime, I'll be training the troops how to shoot bullets and then teaching them how to "close with" in order to hand-drop a grenade in said "trench".
Nice weapon and all, but at 20,000 a system, it's not sustainable. At least not now. In the meantime, I'll be training the troops how to shoot bullets and then teaching them how to "close with" in order to hand-drop a grenade in said "trench".
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NSDreamer said:Fox news helping me? :
Ha ha. The mere sighting of Fox and you turn and run with no thought to content. What a hoot! I saw no bias in the article, but go ahead and denigrate the unread article (by you) as some sort of right wing crazed neocon conspiracy. Your loss. The video was a company one with no reporting from Fox. Hope your blinders don't bug your eyes out too much.
I'm sure your mother CBC will get around to showing it one day with the spin your looking for. ;D
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First off, I have handled (not fired one) and if it does what they said it would do during our briefing it's a nifty piece of kit. Some points to clarify:
-Force of a hand grenade: I would say no. A grenade has 150 odd grams of HE, a typical 20-30mm projectile 5 to 20. 40mm grenades: 20 to 40. You may be able to optimize the frag pattern as you know which way the projectile will be facing when it functions (unlike a hand grenade), but you can only do so much with 15 grams.
-It is ball ammunition, not ballpoint. Last time I checked Bic made pens, lighters, and razors, not ammo.
-Ammo cost, who cares at this point. If you are buying the system you are buying ammo. I have never seen ammo refused to released for ops because of price. 25 bucks for a piece of ammo with some tech in it is cheap.
-I see this being carried like a shotgun. If SOPs/situation dictate you carry it, someone carries it.
As I said, if it does what it says on the box, it will be useful. Remember you can fire it at pers in the open, they don't have to be behind a wall, and it has a longer range than 40mm LV.
Edit:Â And there is no guidance, just ranging!
-Force of a hand grenade: I would say no. A grenade has 150 odd grams of HE, a typical 20-30mm projectile 5 to 20. 40mm grenades: 20 to 40. You may be able to optimize the frag pattern as you know which way the projectile will be facing when it functions (unlike a hand grenade), but you can only do so much with 15 grams.
-It is ball ammunition, not ballpoint. Last time I checked Bic made pens, lighters, and razors, not ammo.
-Ammo cost, who cares at this point. If you are buying the system you are buying ammo. I have never seen ammo refused to released for ops because of price. 25 bucks for a piece of ammo with some tech in it is cheap.
-I see this being carried like a shotgun. If SOPs/situation dictate you carry it, someone carries it.
As I said, if it does what it says on the box, it will be useful. Remember you can fire it at pers in the open, they don't have to be behind a wall, and it has a longer range than 40mm LV.
Edit:Â And there is no guidance, just ranging!
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recceguy said:Ha ha. The mere sighting of Fox and you turn and run with no thought to content. What a hoot! I saw no bias in the article, but go ahead and denigrate the unread article (by you) as some sort of right wing crazed neocon conspiracy. Your loss. The video was a company one with no reporting from Fox. Hope your blinders don't bug your eyes out too much.
Tch, right you are. Face to face with my own prejudice! How ugly a thing!
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Weapons like the XM-25 or the Korean K-11 are trying to pack the lethal goodness of a 40mm grenade launcher into a more compact package for the users like you and I. From what I have seen, the 25mm round has a flatter trajectory and greater range than the 40mm rounds a M-203 type weapon fires, so you trade range for lethality. The only other way to go about this would be to make a weapon that can fire 40mm HV rounds from the shoulder. It is possible from a technical point of view (the Swiss ARPAD 600 grenade launcher was built to do this) and would provide a useful niche capability at the cost of a fairly large and bulky weapon. Ditching the expensive sight but keeping the explosive warheads would result in something like the AA-12 automatic shotgun firing "Frag 12" rounds, which would be quite lethal at short range for room clearing, but give up long range accuracy.
This sort of weapon is very valuable given the greater reach and accuracy, and future refinements should include finding ways to produce the sighting unit at a much lower price (this is where all the cost is coming from. You could build an underbarrel 25mm launcher for a few hundred dollars for every rifleman, but the rounds would be very ineffective launched "by eyeball"), and more powerful explosive fillings which can increase the lethality. Having some different ammunition natures will also be nice.
The next evolution of this type of weapon will be a section support weapon to supplement/replace the C-9, or larger more capable weapons to take the role of the GPMG at platoon/company level, so long as they are not significantly larger or bulkier than the weapons they replace. Some Swedish thinking on these lines here
This sort of weapon is very valuable given the greater reach and accuracy, and future refinements should include finding ways to produce the sighting unit at a much lower price (this is where all the cost is coming from. You could build an underbarrel 25mm launcher for a few hundred dollars for every rifleman, but the rounds would be very ineffective launched "by eyeball"), and more powerful explosive fillings which can increase the lethality. Having some different ammunition natures will also be nice.
The next evolution of this type of weapon will be a section support weapon to supplement/replace the C-9, or larger more capable weapons to take the role of the GPMG at platoon/company level, so long as they are not significantly larger or bulkier than the weapons they replace. Some Swedish thinking on these lines here
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