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New Canadian artillery purchase?

Gunner

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Four Nations Eye Light 105mm Howitzer

By MEGAN SCULLY

EGLIN AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. The U.S. Army and three allies are evaluating a long-range 105mm howitzer that packs the same punch as 155mm artillery with fewer logistics hassles. The new gun, developed by General Dynamics and South Africa-based Denel, meets many of the military‘s transformation goals, including requirements to transport lightweight ground vehicle systems in theater via C-130 aircraft. A prototype mounted on a Lightweight Armored Vehicle (LAV) 3 chassis weighs 35,000 pounds, small and light enough to roll off a C-130 and be ready to fire in minutes.


The LAV 3, an eight-wheeled vehicle used extensively by the U.S. Marine Corps, is similar to the Army‘s Stryker vehicle, which was developed by General Dynamics and is now serving in Iraq. Program officials said the cannon could easily be transferred onto the Stryker platform, potentially fulfilling artillery requirements for the brigade combat teams. The 105mm cannon was designed to lob eight shells a minute as far as 30 kilometers. During a 43-shot demonstration here in mid-April, practice and training rounds were fired as far as 32 kilometers into the Gulf of Mexico - 2 kilometers farther than 155mm ammunition would go, officials said. The shell‘s range is boosted by its boattail, or narrow rear end, and base-bleed technology, which emits gas to break up drag-inducing turbulence, Gyfford Fitchat, Denel executive manager of business development in the United States, said during the cannon demonstration here. The system fires six types of rounds, including a practice round, a regular high-explosive round, a bi-spectral smoke round, visual and infrared illumination rounds, and a highly lethal preformed fragment (PFF) round.

The U.S. Army does not have an infrared illumination round, which explodes in the air to flood the area with invisible light useful only to troops with night vision goggles. "An enemy would hardly even know it‘s being illuminated by the infrared light," Fitchat said. "The IR piece is very important," said Lt. Col. Gregory Kraak, of the Futures Development Integration Center at Fort Sill, Okla. PFF technology, which was developed to help shoot down missiles, arms each shell with a double steel wall and 7,800 tungsten balls. One round "pretty much wipes out a soccer field," Jim Vickrey, director of artillery programs at General Dynamics Land Systems, said at the same demonstration. "This is not your father‘s 105."

Officials from the U.S., U.K., Canadian and South African armies are considering buying the 105mm howitzer, in some cases, to replace aging or heavier systems. The U.S. Army‘s operational requirements for the Stryker brigades include an artillery piece, a need that will be partially met by the new, towed XM777 Lightweight 155mm howitzer in the fifth and sixth Stryker brigades. "We are trying to bring technology to bear on [the Army‘s] needs and requirements," said Mark Roualet, GD senior vice president of ground combat systems. "What we hope to expect from this is interest that would result in fulfilling a need or fulfilling a requirement."

The 105mm cannon could help the United Kingdom field a C-130-deployable lightweight mobile artillery system for its Future Rapid Effect System (FRES). "We are interested in what the Americans are doing," said one U.K. official. "It might very well feed into FRES." In Canada, the system could help replace up to three of its ground weapons, including the M109 155mm howitzer, by the end of the decade, said one Canadian military official. A lightweight artillery system would make the Canadian Army, which has no heavy-lift planes, "self-sufficient." In South Africa, the system could be mounted on an LAV or similar vehicle to compete for a planned purchase in 2007 or 2008 of long-range artillery, Fitchat said.

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This was the first I heard we were considering buying this style of weapon system. It would fit in well with the medium weight capability that we are currently moving towards (Coyote, LAV III, MGS, MMEV, etc).
 
"Sniff, sniff, sniff.. what‘s that? Could it be?? A breath of fresh air?"

Well, I‘ve been out of the loop for awhile, but this looks like it might have some potential...

Gunner, RCA... opinions??
 
Sounds too good too be true[and we know what that means].
I like the idea of a "dummy round" as this would still allow the gun position to function as if it were live.
Does anyone know what this system might cost?
CHEERS
 
I‘m quivering in excitement.... but I‘m going to hold off with the celebrations until we actually see them deployed.

Still.. hopeful news... :D
 
http://www.liw.co.za/news/news_liw_ausa_exhibition.htm

This site has some graphics of the weapon system. Its a turreted weapon on a LAV chassis.

52 calibres, 57 with the rifled muzzle brake.
 
It looks a little to narrow to shoot with the barrel over the sides, I‘m guessing it can fire only over the frontal arc, or either has a really effective muzzle brake.
 
http://www.strykernews.com/gallery/todd/fire1
http://www.strykernews.com/gallery/todd/fire2
http://www.strykernews.com/gallery/todd/fire3

Gun firing (forwards)
Gun loading on C130

http://www.strykernews.com/archives/2004/04/26/howitzer_test_firing.html#000856
Articles related to the above


http://www.defesanet.com.br/noticia/denel105mmeng/

No outriggers allowed.

No turret crew allowed.
 
http://www.strykernews.com/gallery/strykerhowitzer/howitzer2
http://www.strykernews.com/gallery/strykerhowitzer/howitzer1

Here are a couple more.

Only thing I can‘t figure is where DOES the gun crew sit, if not in the turret?

Puzzled
 
And yet more info
http://www.clw.org/cat/newswire/nw083100.html

Denel to unveil 105mm gun with long range

HELMOED-RÃ-MER HEITMAN

Cape Town-- South Africa‘s Denel will unveil its 105mm Light Experimental Ordnance (LEO) at Africa Aerospace and Defence in September. The ‘concept demonstrator‘ has been under development with South African Army funding since 1995. The first demonstration shoot was carried out earlier this year.

The aim of the programme was to develop a light gun with range and terminal effects similar to existing 155mm guns, but with a lesser logistic load. The concept is for a gun suited to the needs of early entry forces and for peace support operations where safety distances and collateral damage considerations are often paramount.

The LEO is a 105mm/52-cal weapon (57-cal with the rifled muzzle brake) with a maximum range of 24,000m using boat-tail shells and 30,000m with base-bleed shells. It can also fire 105mm Armour-Piercing Fin-Stabilised Discarding Sabot (APFSDS) rounds for self-defence against main battle tanks and other armoured vehicles. The LEO can fire six rounds per minute. The gun has a split-trail steel carriage and weighs 3,800kg in its present form. LEO, together with 100 shells and charges, weighs some 6,000kg compared with more than 10,000kg for a 155mm gun with 100 rounds. Production weapons are expected to weigh less.

The LEO has a towing hook and lifting hooks to allow it to be deployed by helicopter. The breech is of the swing and slide type. The LEO has fixed-length recoil with a gas counter-recoil system. The muzzle brake is a high-efficiency pepperpot with special Laval-shaped nozzles and is rifled. Both traverse and elevation are hydraulic with a manual back-up, and provision has been made for automatic laying. The gun traverses 40 º to either side, and has an elevation range from -5 º to +75 º.

The gun is fitted with Kentron‘s inertial laying and navigation system with a direct interface to a fire-control system. It also has a direct optical sight.

Denel‘s Naschem division has developed a new pre-fragmented high explosive (HE) shell for the gun with a lethal area of more than 2,000m2 when fitted with a proximity fuze. That compares with the 1,900m2 lethal area of Denel‘s 155mm extended range full bore RDX/TNT filled shell and the 1,000m2 or less of a standard TNT-filled 155mm shell. Naschem has also developed a standard HE shell.

The Somchem division has developed a five-zone unimodular charge system for the LEO that is essentially a scaled down version of the 155mm charge system selected by the British Army for its BAE Systems RO Defence AS90 155mm self-propelled howitzer. This gives the 105mm shell a muzzle velocity between 950 and 1,050m/sec and a range of 24,000m with the standard shell. It is expected that a range of 30,000m will be achieved with the base-bleed unit that is to be developed for this ammunition. The dispersion is 0.3% of range and 0.5 mil in deflection at 75% of maximum range.

Further development of the LEO will depend on continued army funding or foreign interest. It will include reducing weight and improving deployability and mobility, adding automatic laying and a laser inertial laying system, developing an assisted loading system and adapting the gun to allow the use of older 105 mm ammunition for training purposes. It will also include the development of the base-bleed unit.

Denel‘s 105mm Light Experimental Ordnance promises a range of 30,000m. It has a fire-control system linked to an inertial laying and navigation system


Cheers
 
This artillery piece is certainly more asthetic than the MGS. It actually has a turret.
 
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Community/MapleLeaf/html_files/html_view_e.asp?page=vol7-16army#e1

visit this link if it dont work its the dnd main site I clicked on what‘s new and then choose the maple leaf ......... GOOD NEWS FOR US GUNNERS HOOAH
 
From my understanding of the MAVS concept, the plan is to mount the C3 weapon system on to the bed of a medium truck. Is this correct? Or is it more of a towed artillery concept?
 
There was also a 155 mm concept for the LAV III:

LAV_155.jpg
 
MAVS will probably look like what RDM has done for the MOBAT program.

http://www.rdm-technology.com/defenceengineering/index2.htm

In fact, RDM has already demonstrated MOBAT in Shilo. If I were a betting man, I‘d put money on RDM doing MOBAT, since they were the ones that did the C3 upgrade.

The truck will most likely be a Canadianized version of the US FMTV which is being looked at as the replacement for the MLVW.
http://www.ssss.com/fmtv/index.asp
 
MAVS and MOBAT seems like an odd concept,
How are the arty rounds transported?
A seperate ammo truck?

Has 4th LAR Bn gone through SLEP and ITSS?
 
2FtOnion,

MOBAT carries 40 ready rounds aboard the vehicle in ammo storage racks that are located behind the vehicle cab.

CASR has got a good arty. transformation page
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-artytransf.htm
as well as a MAVS/MOBAT page
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-artymavs.htm

4th LAR is going through SLEP now as we speak. We should be complete by the end of the fall. I did the SLEP crewman‘s familiarization with 2nd LAR back in mid-October down in Lejeune. The program is correcting some sore-points with LAV maintenance, but the biggest thing I don‘t like is remounting a POL can next to the driver‘s hatch. It wouldn‘t be so bad if it was mounted straight up and down, but they‘ve put it at this 45 degree angle which takes up more room than it needs to.

When we did the SLEP course, the last day we were asked what we‘d want for SLEP 2. The SLEP 1 was mostly maintainer driven. For SLEP 2 I would like to see things like:
-wider Michelin tires that the Canadians are using for the Coyote/Bison.
-interior spall liner
-improved interior engine access panels
-rpg resistant armor package/rpg cage
-improved comm. system in the vehicle so that the scouts have greater situational awareness
-adding a hydraulic ramp, as was done with the LAV-Mortar for Dragonfire http://www.rdecom.army.mil/rdemagazine/200309/itl_tacom_dragonfire.html
-remounting the fuel tank to add more space to the scout compartment.
-putting in a water chiller for desert ops.

I don‘t know whether any of those would be done, and I‘m digressing here, as this is a subject that should best be addressed in the Armour forum.

As far as ITSS, we should be getting that upgrade sometime over the next year or two. I haven‘t seen the 2nd gen. FLIR that they‘re replacing the current ones with, so I can‘t imagine how much better the sight resolution is. It‘ll be one of those things that once we get it, we‘ll think "Man, how did I work with that piece of crap that we had?"
 
The fact that we have not gone to this tech is quite odd. Think of the time saved if the gun was always ready to fire, always recorded and always had ammo untubed and ready to go, even in transit.
Hide in the treeline and pull out to fire.
If it only takes a minute and a half to come into action are you ever unavailable?
When we are supporting our forces time is the difference between life and death for our troops.

Just a few thoughts.
 
The MOBAT concept is and extremely excellent concept for an upgrade. It is easier to upgrade current equipment than to buy a completely new piece of kit. We currently already have 105mm C3 howitzers which were upgraded by the same company that is proposing to upgrade us to MOBAT. Having a Regt of highly mobile separate firing units, which will change the way Canadian Artillery fight will be a drastic change to current doctrination. No longer will Guns need to be deployed in Bty gun posns. A bty of 6 guns (if same as today) will now become six individual firing units roaming gun areas. This will enable a greater survilabity for or  guns. Shoot and scoot. Each gun on requires a 4 man det to operate it especially with the onboard ammo. the only additional requirement is that an additional ammo limber per gun is required.
 
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