OCdt Sage Fanstone, Suicide and Investigation

[The Bread Guy]

Some more, in English, from the Kingston Whig-Standard, shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42) ....

Royal Military College has confirmed a 19-year-old officer cadet died Wednesday afternoon in Kingston.

“I am deeply saddened by the tragic death of Officer Cadet Sage Fanstone,” Brig.-Gen. Al Meinzinger, commandant of RMC, said in a statement. “He was a second-year cadet at the Royal Military College of Canada and this terrible event has affected us all. This incident is currently under investigation by Kingston Police.”

Emergency services were called to Ontario Street at approximately 3:30 p.m. for a medical emergency with vital signs absent. Kingston Police said in a statement the incident is classified as a sudden death with no criminal element or suspicion of foul play.

Police said the regional coroner's office is now investigating.

“Officer Cadet Fanstone’s next of kin have been notified,” Meinzinger said. “My deepest condolences go out to them, and support is being provided during this very difficult time.”

Meinzinger said students, staff and faculty are saddened by Fanstone's death, and support is being offered to those affected by the loss.

“On behalf of the entire Royal Military College of Canada family, I extend my deepest sympathy to his family, his friends and all of his fellow students at RMC,” Meinzinger said.

 

[geo]

From the French news report, the 2nd year cadet had been arrested for what could become a career ending "morality" issue.

- mod edit to remove speculation -

RIP comrade Fanstone, I hope you have found a better place.

 

[dapaterson]

According to the Whig-Standard,

On Wednesday afternoon, the Military Police were informed of Fanstone's death. RMC said Friday that Fanstone was on duty and in uniform at the time of his death. While the national investigation service intended to charge Fanstone on Friday under the Criminal Code of Canada, out of respect for the deceased and his family the nature of the charges will not be released.

http://www.thewhig.com/2015/05/08/rmc-officer-cadet-was-arrested-and-taken-to-hospital-under-mental-health-act-the-day-before-his-death

 

[PuckChaser]

Hopefully there's a summary investigation conducted, in no way should OCdt Fanstone have been allowed to leave the hospital alone after a mental health call, especially as a military member.

 

[brihard]

Hopefully there's a summary investigation conducted, in no way should OCdt Fanstone have been allowed to leave the hospital alone after a mental health call, especially as a military member.

The hospital would in no way be obligated to inform anyone when he was getting discharged. If he was brought in by police under the Ontario Mental Health Act, typically the hospital will at some point take charge of the patient and the police will leave unless their continued presence is required because the person is in policy custody for an investigation, or ongoing security/safety issues are present. Typically the patient will tell the assessing doctor what they figure the doctor wants to hear, and typically the doctor will determine that insufficient grounds exit for an involuntary admission and the patient will be released because at that point that hospital has no legal authority to stop them.

The military could have communicated to the cadet an order to not leave the hospital except in the presence of a military escort. Decide for yourself how likely it is that a suicidal person will follow such direction.

Lots more that I'd like to know about this case and that we never will, particularly the nature of the search warrant and charges. No matter what the specifics are, this is a tragedy.

 

[PuckChaser]

I'm sure the hospital followed policy as written, but why was an escort from RMC or the Base Duty O not there? I'm more concerned with the breakdown between the MPs calling for OMHA observation and the CoC of the soldier clearly not being informed/reacting appropriately. We need to work to prevent something like this from happening again, and a SI should show where there was a breakdown.

 

[RCDtpr]

Hopefully there's a summary investigation conducted, in no way should OCdt Fanstone have been allowed to leave the hospital alone after a mental health call, especially as a military member.

When we (the police) transport an individual to the hospital under the mental health act; once the doctor takes "possession" for lack of a better term of the individual....we leave as we no longer have anything to do with the process and can't exactly sit around for up to 72 hours.

If a doctor decides the individual is fit to leave the hospital....under what authority could either the police or military essentially detain the individual by escorting him back to base or wherever.

An apprehension under the mental health act is not an arrest and as was stated by Brihard....the hospital has no legal obligation....in fact it would be a violation of the members privacy rights.....for them to notify the military he was being discharged without his consent.

People need to understand that while the MPs are in the military...they are police officers and as such are required by law to not violate the rights of individuals.  If a doctor signed off on the member.....neither the MPs nor anyone from RMC is qualified to challenge that.  You can't just arbitrarily remove someone's freedom because you think a doctor is wrong.....the guy has rights.

Hindsight being what it is....obviously the doctor was wrong.......but nobody had anyway of knowing that at the time.

This is a tragic event and I hope the family of the deceased member is ok.

 

[PuckChaser]

Thats fine in a civilian sense, drop the guy off and you're not legally responsible anymore. But its Military Police, right? Whats wrong with "Member has been transported to KGH and left in the care of XXX" and let the unit spool up its support system? Stating a member is at hospital is not a breach of their privacy.

I'm not saying the MP did anything wrong here, what I am saying is that if we have a policy that allows this, considering the current issues we have with mental health/PTSD/OSI/etc, then we need to do something to prevent it. This is especially true for young, presumably single soldiers in a school/university environment who are far from family and any normal support system. We're brothers/sisters in arms, and need to be there for each other.

 

[RCDtpr]

Thats fine in a civilian sense, drop the guy off and you're not legally responsible anymore. But its Military Police, right? Whats wrong with "Member has been transported to KGH and left in the care of XXX" and let the unit spool up its support system? Stating a member is at hospital is not a breach of their privacy.

I'm not saying the MP did anything wrong here, what I am saying is that if we have a policy that allows this, considering the current issues we have with mental health/PTSD/OSI/etc, then we need to do something to prevent it. This is especially true for young, presumably single soldiers in a school/university environment who are far from family and any normal support system. We're brothers/sisters in arms, and need to be there for each other.

While I don't disagree with you....there are still legal issues.  A doctor signed off on the individual that he was fine.  I wasn't there, but he clearly wasn't arrested, and I assume had done nothing wrong other than make some sort of indication he may commit self harm (not illegal).  What grounds would the military have to remove the members fundamental right to freedom if a doctor signed off saying he was ok?  A unit does not have the authority to challenge the decision of a medical provider.

While I understand how the military works.....a unit still has to be able to justify removing the rights of a member.  In this case...how could they?

 

[PuckChaser]

I'm not saying they need to be detained, but provide an escort to get them home to the shacks safe and sound after the professionals at the local hospital make their decision. Lets be honest here (and you alluded to it already), a soldier is gonna say whatever they need to say to get out of where they're at. We're good at telling people what they want to hear.

I've been a party to someone who self-identified wanting to commit self-harm, and one of the member's instructors sat in the hospital for 10 hours until that member was discharged, and then gave them a drive to their shacks. Someone checked on them in the morning, and ensured they went to the MIR, and then followed up to ensure the member had returned with an action plan from the MH specialist. This same member self-identified again a few months later, and the exact same process was applied including regular wellness checks while they were on sick leave. No challenging of a medical doctor, simply applying the military support system to ensure the member got exactly the help they needed, and prevented something more serious from occurring.

 

[ballz]

I'm not saying they need to be detained, but provide an escort to get them home to the shacks safe and sound after the professionals at the local hospital make their decision.

That would technically be detaining them. You realize that if a cop pulls you over and won't let you leave, you are technically detained, right? If I want to go from point A to point B, and you want to "escort me," and I tell you to go pound sand but you refuse and insist that you will escort me and tell me that I must comply, then you are detaining me from point A to point B.

I've been a party to someone who self-identified wanting to commit self-harm, and one of the member's instructors sat in the hospital for 10 hours until that member was discharged, and then gave them a drive to their shacks. Someone checked on them in the morning, and ensured they went to the MIR, and then followed up to ensure the member had returned with an action plan from the MH specialist. This same member self-identified again a few months later, and the exact same process was applied including regular wellness checks while they were on sick leave. No challenging of a medical doctor, simply applying the military support system to ensure the member got exactly the help they needed, and prevented something more serious from occurring.

Look at what I underlined. If that person was going to kill themselves, then that period of time, marked by the period between your two sentences, was enough of a window to do it. In your case, it didn't happen, and that's great. In this case, it *appears* the person made it back to the shacks safe and sound as it was, escort or no escort, but before anyone could "check in on him," had already killed himself. I don't know what happened here, but sometimes, short of chaining someone to a bed, you can't prevent it...

As for conducting an SI, I am pretty sure the CAF has already one-upped that as I believe all suicides now trigger a BOI.

 

[Tibbson]

Hopefully there's a summary investigation conducted, in no way should OCdt Fanstone have been allowed to leave the hospital alone after a mental health call, especially as a military member.

I'm sure an SI will be conducted however there is nothing that can be done to stop someone from leaving hospital after a mental health call.  Unless they have been formed, once the physician and mental health folks deem an individual can be released then the person is free to go.  Privacy Act sections actually prohibit them from even phoning the base and letting them know he's being released. 

 

[Tibbson]

I'm sure the hospital followed policy as written, but why was an escort from RMC or the Base Duty O not there? I'm more concerned with the breakdown between the MPs calling for OMHA observation and the CoC of the soldier clearly not being informed/reacting appropriately. We need to work to prevent something like this from happening again, and a SI should show where there was a breakdown.

Its a civilian hospital and they have no obligation to allow any sort of "escort" for the individual. 

And the MPs didn't "call for an observation" and in fact they no authority under any of the Provincial Mental Health Acts.  While most Mental Health Acts refer to "police" and their authority, it draws that definition of "police" from the respective Provincial Police Act and MPs are not named in any of them.  The reasons for that and for why that has never been changed is complex and a topic for another thread. 

What they can do is what they did.  If someone appears to be in some form of distress, or makes statements that they will do harm to themselves, the MP actually have an obligation to take them to a suitable facility for an assessment.  To make it even more complicated though, if the individual declines and if there is no other crime for which the MP could place the individual under arrest, there is not really much they could do short of calling a civilian police officer who can act under the MHA.  Of course, for individuals subject to the CSD they could always be ordered to go with the MP but for civilians it's a complicated issue that is currently being worked on.

 

[The Bread Guy]

From the French news report, the 2nd year cadet had been arrested for what could become a career ending "morality" issue.

- mod edit to remove speculation -

RIP comrade Fanstone, I hope you have found a better place.

Just a quick head's up to all.

Let's not forget there will be all sorts of investigations, especially given the Military Police and NIS being involved, so let's be careful to stick to discussion of broad-strokes issues and stay away from too much second-guessing.

Thanks all.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Tibbson]

Thats fine in a civilian sense, drop the guy off and you're not legally responsible anymore. But its Military Police, right? Whats wrong with "Member has been transported to KGH and left in the care of XXX" and let the unit spool up its support system? Stating a member is at hospital is not a breach of their privacy.

I'm sure the Unit was made aware that the Member was transported to the hospital and left in their care however the Unit has no idea how long the Member is going to be there or when they could be released.  They could be held 24 hours, 72 hours or even much longer if the Doctors deem it necessary and they seek the appropriate court orders.  The Unit can have all of its support system ready to go but since the hospital cannot divulge any personal info on the Member, including when he/she is released, there is not much that can be done if the Member is determined to do harm to themselves. 

 

[McG]

I'm sure an SI will be conducted ...

No.  There will be a BOI.

 

[geo]

excluding operational deaths, there are Boards of Inquiry if:.
•a CF member is suspected to have wilfully caused their own death or serious injury.

see DOAD 7002-1

note that the BOI is not a criminal investigation, its purpose is not to find guilt.

 

[tomahawk6]

Very sad that one so young felt the need to end his life.My prayers for his family.

 

[brihard]

Its a civilian hospital and they have no obligation to allow any sort of "escort" for the individual. 

And the MPs didn't "call for an observation" and in fact they no authority under any of the Provincial Mental Health Acts.  While most Mental Health Acts refer to "police" and their authority, it draws that definition of "police" from the respective Provincial Police Act and MPs are not named in any of them.  The reasons for that and for why that has never been changed is complex and a topic for another thread. 

This surprises me greatly. Have MPs in Ontario not been deemed Police Officers in Ontario under part 2 of the Interprovincial Policing Act? That would seem like a great oversight if such an appointment has not been sought and kept in place each time it comes up for expiry...

 

[Tibbson]

First off, that Act only applies to Ontario and no, MP have never been included in it because MP are not extra-provincial within the scope of this Act.  They exist on every Base in Ontario.  Those MP that are posted outside of Ontario ARE extra-provincial within the scope of the Act however it would still not apply to them even IF they were named because they are not considered police officers under the various provincial Police Acts or Police Services Acts.  Those Acts specifically refer to provincially constituted municipal, regional and/or provincial police departments and in some cases they even exclude some First Nations police agencies.  They also include the RCMP because in many cases they are contracted as the de facto provincial police but they do not include MP. 

There was an attempt made a few years ago to have MP included in the Alberta provincial Police Act but it fell through once government lawyers got involved.  They would not allow a federal agency (the MP) to be under provincial control which they would be through the provincial SIU (or whatever they choose to call it).  The RCMP are in that situation however they are subject to SIU oversight because they are contracted by the Province. 

Its a complex issue but one that is perhaps best left alone since both the NDA and the CC, as well as case law, establish the jurisdiction and authorities of MP.