Precedence of Tribal Badges (or “why I want to wear that badge) – split thread

[Halifax Tar]

As to your off topic suggestion, if you mean that all officer wearing DEU should wear the current "mars" cap badge, that all C&PO's wear the PO2 and above "hard sea" trade cap badge and all seamen wear the MS and below "hard sea" trade cap badge regardless , and that their trade (cook, log O, admin, storesman, etc.) or occupation be denoted by a good looking and wisely positioned badge of some sort on their DEU's, I fully agree.

One Navy, always - trade second.

I tend to agree with Pusser and yourself on this one.  Naval Log types should wear the anchor, alas the Log Branch would never allow such a gross show of pride in one element!  My god we are purple after all! 

The cheapie cloth one is garbage and looks terrible.  I would concede it for work dress uniforms but for DEUs it is just plain unacceptable.

 

[Pusser]

I tend to agree with Pusser and yourself on this one.  Naval Log types should wear the anchor, alas the Log Branch would never allow such a gross show of pride in one element!  My god we are purple after all! 

The cheapie cloth one is garbage and looks terrible.  I would concede it for work dress uniforms but for DEUs it is just plain unacceptable.

In my view, trade badges address the Branch identity issue.  Trade badges plus a Branch cap badge are actually redundant.  Unfortunately, the Log Branch apparently doesn't believe one can have pride in both one's branch and one's service.

 

[Loachman]

Unfortunately, the Log Branch apparently doesn't believe one can have pride in both one's branch and one's service environmental command.

There is still only one Service, despite the number of confused people around.

We have a Naval-uniform-wearing PO2 here, but he is a member of the R**F, as are those people wearing dark green uniforms.

 

[Happy Guy]

The Logistics badge denotes that you are a Logistician.  The trade badge tells the viewer that you are a MSE OP or Tfc Tech or Sup Tech or RMS Clk, Fin Clk or an Ammo Tech.

 

[Pusser]

The Logistics badge denotes that you are a Logistician.  The trade badge tells the viewer that you are a MSE OP or Tfc Tech or Sup Tech or RMS Clk, Fin Clk or an Ammo Tech.

Since those are all Logistics trades, the trade badge serves to identify the wearer as both a logistician and a member of a particular trade.  A Logistics cap badge is not required to do that.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Ummm, does the whole NCD or DEU or stitching on your name tape/rank insignia show that you are Navy?  The cap badge would be the last indicator method of realizing that.

Any way, we have now identified members of the "Buttons and Bows" Brigade (or should that be Squadron?), please make sure that no operational problems disturb their chatter.

 

[Pusser]

There is still only one Service, despite the number of confused people around.

We have a Naval-uniform-wearing PO2 here, but he is a member of the R**F, as are those people wearing dark green uniforms.

Semantics.  I used the term "service" because "environmental command," besides being a mouthful (and not a pleasant one) is not a complete statement.  The Commander RCN made it very clear when the name was reinstated that the RCN is NOT just an environmental command.  He very clearly stated that the RCN includes ALL personnel wearing naval uniforms.

 

[dapaterson]

The NDA disagrees.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

PART II
The Canadian Forces
Constitution

Marginal note:Canadian Forces

14 The Canadian Forces are the armed forces of Her Majesty raised by Canada and consist of one Service called the Canadian Armed Forces.

R.S., c. N-4, s. 14.

Units and Other Elements

Marginal note:Organization

17 (1) The Canadian Forces shall consist of those of the following elements that are from time to time organized by or under the authority of the Minister:

(a) commands, including the Royal Canadian Navy, the Canadian Army and the Royal Canadian Air Force;

(b) formations;

(c) units; and

(d) other elements.

Marginal note:Components

(2) A unit or other element organized under subsection (1), other than a command or a formation, shall from time to time be embodied in a component of the Canadian Forces as directed by or under the authority of the Minister.

R.S., 1985, c. N-5, s. 17; 2014, c. 20, s. 168.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/n-5/FullText.html

 

[Blackadder1916]

The skew of this thread reminded me of this photo I recently came across that had "RCN" logisticians front and centre.  Yup, definitely navy.

 

[CountDC]

Can I stir some more?

It was once pointed out to me that many members of the "real" navy such as bos'ns were of the opinion that regardless of wearing the salt and pepper you did not and should not have the right to wear the anchor on your cap until you have sailed so switching navy logs over may satisfy some loggies it may P.O. (pun intended) a lot more hard sea trade members. 

My Cap bade tells everyone I am log, my NCDs and beard tells everyone I am navy.  Let's not waste money revamping a badge, give it to me instead.  I promise to find a better use for it.

 

[dapaterson]

Your beard says that it's a while since you went to sea

 

[CountDC]

true - and no intention of going.  One part of my posting that I am enjoying, driving the army crazy by wearing NCDs and a beard.

The directions say dress for today is combats ......... I am wearing combats.

This is the army, our dress of the day is CADPAT ............. I am navy, my dress of the day is NCDs.

What if I order you to wear CADPAT .......... email it sir and I will forward to Adm Donaldson to confirm that your order over rules the canforgen he issued.

4 years later and still waiting.  [

 

[Baz]

Semantics.  I used the term "service" because "environmental command," besides being a mouthful (and not a pleasant one) is not a complete statement.  The Commander RCN made it very clear when the name was reinstated that the RCN is NOT just an environmental command.  He very clearly stated that the RCN includes ALL personnel wearing naval uniforms.

The CANFORGEN, released by the CAS  (as he is the only one entitled to do so) stated it was just a renaming of the three environmental commands.  That is true unless they change the NBA.

The MARGEN,  by the Comd RCN, said the RCN is more than an environmental command... it is the institution all member's wearing the Naval uniform belong.  The term institution has no definition or standing in the organizational structure.

The Comd RCN has no legal authority over someone not actually in the RCN... ie in his chain of command, ie what used to be called MARCOM.  The chain of command you work for does.  If they order you to wear CADPAT that is a legal order, full stop.

The only thing the whole thing did was further confuse C2 in an already confused organization.  We had an Air Force LCol at SHAPE that insisted he was in the RCAF...he wasn't, he was in VCDS, and the CO had to explain it to him.

The Comd RCN should have been put back in his box by the CAS, but that would have been contrary to the flavour of the day, and the result is now we have NCMs believing they can challenge their chain of command over uniforms... lovely.  Funny thing is other countries that have legally separate services, and us when we did as well, would never allow that.  If you were in the real RCN and we're attached the the Army you would never have thought it was appropriate to question things like this.  Do you think a USN Corpsman attached to the US Army questions what he's told to wear.

Ironically, I think Naval Air should be just that, Naval... to avoid the situation.  In no way does Canadian Naval Air ever completely belong to the RCN, even when embarked.  Full Command remains back through the Sqn and the RCAF.  Which means there are things they can't be ordered to do, which this same RCN gets all bent out of shape over, even while still trying to influence command in the Army.  FUBAR.

Make Naval Air belong to the Navy, like everywhere else... but understand if you are not in the RCN they have no legal authority to tell you anything.

 

[CountDC]

The Comd RCN has no legal authority over someone not actually in the RCN... ie in his chain of command, ie what used to be called MARCOM.  The chain of command you work for does.  If they order you to wear CADPAT that is a legal order, full stop.

The Comd RCN should have been put back in his box by the CAS, but that would have been contrary to the flavour of the day, and the result is now we have NCMs believing they can challenge their chain of command over uniforms... lovely.  Funny thing is other countries that have legally separate services, and us when we did as well, would never allow that.  If you were in the real RCN and we're attached the the Army you would never have thought it was appropriate to question things like this.  Do you think a USN Corpsman attached to the US Army questions what he's told to wear.

Adm Donaldson was the VCDS when he signed the CANFORGEN not CMS.  Damn rights I will challenge anyone that wants to issue me an order to wear a uniform contrary to regulations same as I challenged them when they tried to tell me I couldn't wear a beard. I also challenge them over many things as it is part of my responsibility as a SNCM and clerk to challenge them when I see they are ignoring a regulation.  Guess what - I just did it again today.  Guess what else - my chain of command has thanked me several times for doing it as they want to be aware so that they can keep out of trouble for doing something wrong.  If your chain doesn't appreciate being challenged and advised of the regulations then there is something wrong there.

Last time I checked we are the REAL RCN, I am posted to the army and yes I not only think it is approriate to question, it is expected when you are aware of the regulations.

 

[Journeyman]

Your beard says that it's a while since you went to sea

true - and no intention of going.

So you like dressing up as a sailor but have no intention of being one; you just like focusing on costumes and badges.  Why are you not in NDHQ?

It's a rhetorical question.  <--- that means don't bother responding.

Any way, we have now identified members of the "Buttons and Bows" Brigade (or should that be Squadron?), please make sure that no operational problems disturb their chatter.

    :nod:

 

[CountDC]

I will answer anyway.

I was at NDHQ and left.

and the answer is no I don't like dressing up as a sailor, that is the uniform the military gave to me and told me I have to wear.  I also wore green prior and didn't care as a uniform is a uniform and as a purply trade really doesn't matter which I wear.  As I posted earlier I like driving the army here crazy thus the beard.  The truth is I never grew one with the ship, at stad or when at CMSHQ.  I just grew it here. 

 

[Baz]

Last time I checked we are the REAL RCN, I am posted to the army and yes I not only think it is approriate to question, it is expected when you are aware of the regulations.

This is exactly what a lot of people were worried about when thiswas being pushed for.  At least when Hellyer unified he actually rewrite the only order that really matters, the NDA.  The original direction was clear... this was only supposed to be the renaming of Maritime Command to the RCN , and Air Command to the RCAF.  Then somehow the "Institution" of the RCN was created, whatever that means.

On the Air Force side, it's another issue.  The creeping expansion of 1CdnAirDiv and the "CAOC" into C2 areas they don't belong (like a HelAirDet) at sea is also causing confusion.

I'm quite sure you know the "regulations" better than I; I wouldn't be so proud of it because the are unorganized, often conflicting, and frequently break some of the basic rules of C2.  However, I'm relatively confident I understand C2 sufficiently to know that the situation you are so happy to perpetrate in order to annoy people in your legal formation in the long term will be bad for effective C2 and probably good order and discipline.  I couldn't give a hoot what you wear or whether you shave.  The current situation concerning basic understanding of "Full Command" does concern me.

If what you describe is what the government wants, then let's recreate the RCN and RCAF properly, put everybody in one of the 3 (or more services) with their proper uniform, and get on with it.  Of course, then your trade would split in three, you would have three choices for posting (West, East, and Ottawa), and your career flexibility would be 1/3rd as well.  And your trade would be the first to proclaim bloody murder.

But that's not what will happen... will keep issuing "regulations" and "directives" concerning organizations that don't legally exist, diluting the responsibility of command, and conveniently also diluting the responsibility of commanders to command (so that they don't have to take responsibility for their actions).  And it's quite likely it will never matter because the organization will never be truly tested.  But history shows repeatedly that it never turns ot good if there is any question as to who is actually in charge in times of stress...

Now I need to try to figure out why I give a flying f¥£€.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I have to agree with Baz on this one.

When RCN/RCAF/CA were brought back as terminology, they clearly were identified as replacement "labels" for the Maritime Command, Air Command and Land Force Command. Unification was not undone and nothing changed.

When posted to a ship, you are under RCN whilst you train, and if deployed on ops, you then belong to CJOC. This is regardless of the colour of your uniform. Same applies to someone working on an Air Force base or at an Army Camp.

When I first heard of the order indicating that when people wearing the naval DEU were posted to an "Army/Air Force" base and the dress of the day was Combats, they were to wear their NCD, unless warranted by special circumstances (such as being deployed in the field), I too in another thread of these forum questioned the basis for Cmdt RCN to be able to make an order that would override the orders of people outside his chain of command. But then, I was informed that it was a CANFORGEN that ordered it be so, and that made then clear that it is a binding order on all the commands of the CF.

After a fashion, I thought about it and came to the conclusion that it is not only a proper order, but a logical one where the unified CF are concerned. I have two reasons. One is purely practical/economical: It would be very expensive in the end if people had to trade in their NCD or CADPAT every time they get posted back and forth between the RCN or the RCAF/CA. The second reason is actually in keeping with the letter and spirit of unification: If people (and in particular purple trade to whom it applies most often) were "ordered" to turn in their NCD and get into CADPAT whenever posted to a RCAF/CA base (or in reverse to turn in their CADPAT and get into NCD when posted to a RCN base, such as galley duties in Halifax for instance), how would that be different than asking them to change DEU's to correspond to their posting each time they get posted in and out of a given command? THAT would be undoing unification. So in that sense the order is quite comprehensible.

 

[FSTO]

I have to agree with Baz on this one.

When RCN/RCAF/CA were brought back as terminology, they clearly were identified as replacement "labels" for the Maritime Command, Air Command and Land Force Command. Unification was not undone and nothing changed.

When posted to a ship, you are under RCN whilst you train, and if deployed on ops, you then belong to CJOC. This is regardless of the colour of your uniform. Same applies to someone working on an Air Force base or at an Army Camp.

When I first heard of the order indicating that when people wearing the naval DEU were posted to an "Army/Air Force" base and the dress of the day was Combats, they were to wear their NCD, unless warranted by special circumstances (such as being deployed in the field), I too in another thread of these forum questioned the basis for Cmdt RCN to be able to make an order that would override the orders of people outside his chain of command. But then, I was informed that it was a CANFORGEN that ordered it be so, and that made then clear that it is a binding order on all the commands of the CF.

After a fashion, I thought about it and came to the conclusion that it is not only a proper order, but a logical one where the unified CF are concerned. I have two reasons. One is purely practical/economical: It would be very expensive in the end if people had to trade in their NCD or CADPAT every time they get posted back and forth between the RCN or the RCAF/CA. The second reason is actually in keeping with the letter and spirit of unification: If people (and in particular purple trade to whom it applies most often) were "ordered" to turn in their NCD and get into CADPAT whenever posted to a RCAF/CA base (or in reverse to turn in their CADPAT and get into NCD when posted to a RCN base, such as galley duties in Halifax for instance), how would that be different than asking them to change DEU's to correspond to their posting each time they get posted in and out of a given command? THAT would be undoing unification. So in that sense the order is quite comprehensible.

Well if I could be a bit of a wag; That was what the green uniforms were for!!!  >

I believe that Hellyer should have used the RN model for unification (RCN, Naval Aviation and the RCMC) but I know a group on here would really get their shorts in a knot!!!

Oh and Baz? USN Corpsmen work for the Marines not the US Army.

Cheers!!!