Questions about Distraction Devices?

[brihard]

In our OBUA training in the PRes, I've noticed a shift literally in the past year to using DDs instead of posting a grenade as we enter a room- I understand the logic of course; you don't know if it's an insurgent or a school teacher around the corner, and of course interior walls In a  lot of buildings are merely concealment, and certainly not cover against grenade fragments, but despite Ore exercises where we toss a T-flash to simulate a DD, no-one has ever actually told us anything about the DDs themselves.

From what I gather from searches, it's essentially the flash-bang you see in popular games or Tom Clancy books, but I don't know anything about how the C.F. uses them, who gets issued them on tour, or whether there are any opportunities (particularly in PRes) to train with them. I don't expected to get handed a flash-bang on my next unit FTX or anything, but are they ever seen or used in a reserve context? Also, can anyone link me to a Pam or some such about the DDs the C.F. uses? (I don't have DIN access, so if there's any websites that would be preferable).

I figure that if they're going to keep mentioning the things in unit exercises, I'd like to do a bit of research so I can gain some at least theoretical familiarity with them, and know roughly what they're about and what their capabilities/characteristics are.

Thanks

Brihard

 

[KevinB]

DD's outside DHTC are extremely limited.

Only real chnace of using them is on the UOIC, kiss off any chance in the reserves, unless you deploy (and even then they seem to enjoy handing out Frags instead of Bangers)

 

[MJP]

In our OBUA training in the PRes, I've noticed a shift literally in the past year to using DDs instead of posting a grenade as we enter a room- I understand the logic of course; you don't know if it's an insurgent or a school teacher around the corner, and of course interior walls In a  lot of buildings are merely concealment, and certainly not cover against grenade fragments, but despite Ore exercises where we toss a T-flash to simulate a DD, no-one has ever actually told us anything about the DDs themselves.

I see you have hit on something I rant about from time to time at work (ask Kevin ).  I absolutely hate practicing something I'll never use, but time and time again we continually "throw in the DD" and then clear the room.  I know that we should know how to use them but as Kevin said their use outside of DHTC is very very limited and I would rather practice room clearing the way we would 99% of the time (kinda like training how you would fight and all that jazz).  But since it's the trend and the "IN" thing expect to see it...just don't expect to use it all to often, which is wrong IMHO as they are another extremely useful thing to have in the toolbox.

 

[brihard]

(and even then they seem to enjoy handing out Frags instead of Bangers)

Thanks for answering my questions regarding DDs and whether we ever actually train with them. I guess it's one of those concepts which is still very much more conceptual than it is reality.

I was thinking about DDs vs Frags, and something I thought of brings up another point. I realize the architecture of the areas we are likely to engage in operations in generally involve relatively 'hard' structures (packed mud, stone, concrete, etc), but were we to engage in combat operations in any location with modern structures, has thought been given to the fact that frags could be a serious liability to friendly troops, given the fact that drywall is notoriously poor at stopping any sort of penetration? I'd hate to grenade around a corner prior to room entry and have my own grenade fragments come right back through the wall at me due to the sort of building materials we have here. That's not an issue I've ever seen addressed in the 'flashbang vs. frag debate. Granted we're unlikely to fight in any kind of 'western' location any time soon, but it IS something people should be aware of if, God forbid, we find ourselves in some kind of armed conflict either at home or in another similarly developed nation.

But yeah, agreed, it would be a good piece of kit to have in the general 'infantry' toolbox. I'm sure we've all read Black Hawk Down and similar works, and it illustrates excellent examples of when we might not know who's around the corner, and why we might not want to automatically frag if a DD is an option- though of course when all's said and done, the safety of friendly troops is the priority if the mission itself is not compromised...

 

[KevinB]

Even the building materials used here I would prefer to use DD's to a Frag.

We only use bangers in my current postion - and I dont feel hard done by that the use of Frags is controlled by higher.  However people must understand that it is a LESS LETHAL distraction (or someimes warning/attraction method, and not a panacea for poor drills or non existant tactics.

 

[brihard]

Have you used DDs in situations where you can give us a reasonable run down on what they can and cannot do, how effective they are, and what any strengths and weaknesses are? It would be nice to hear it from someone who's actually used the things either operationally or in training, which you seem to imply you have.

 

[COBRA-6]

DD's outside DHTC are extremely limited.

Is the reason cost or doctrine? I'm curious to know the unit price of a banger vs frags.

 

 

[KevinB]

Mike -- we should have a beer this week at Warehouse and I will give you my thoughts -- basically resting on incompetancey somewhere withing the CF system...

I can tell you a banger is aprox $75 Cdn for an individual item buy (like a small police dept) I cant tell you what it would cost in the tens of thousand -- however many compnaies make training bangs that are similar to the real deal but less Db and reload (costing less than $1 / reload if bought in bulk).

The same rationale hits here however is that the CF Less Lethal Policy is a shambles -- ask anyone deployed to Afghan about the use of CN/CS or OC and they can tell you the CF is FUCKED - since they decided it was banned under chemical weapon provisions so instead of having a less lethal option you went straight to lethal wapon fire...


I've used bangers both operationally and in training.  Depending on the Banger it gives a brilliant magnesium flare (or flares) and a single or multiple report (Bang) that is loud enough in enclosed environments to stun someone near it (or loud enough to do serious hearing damage/concussion in a very small space (Ie a Pickup truck  ;D )
  However they are just a momentary distraction - designed to interupt the enemy OODA loop - first by movement as it enters the eyes track to movment - then it goes off - at that moment the entry team is in the room and tap tap.
  It is the open air Crowd Control issue that is of issue -- when confronting a agitated civilian crowd that you are either attempting to disperce or to create a tactical pause in their behaviour to allow you to extract -- depending upon the placement and type of banger (what out for the old DefTech 25's) the banger can rocket into the crow when it goes off -- causing injury and making them more angry (not too good). 
The CF's Nico 9 Banger is an excellent multi discharge banger that has a low probability of becoming a secondary missile itself.
The other use for Bangers is a warning device for approachign vehicles -- sometime people are VERY dumb - and they approach motorcades or convoys that they should not -- however most of us do not wish to wipe the local populace off the face of the earth when they may just be dumb or inattnetive -- as such a DD can be tossed from the rear escrot vehicle -- this serves to provide a visibile and audible Wake UP call to the approcahing vehicles to BACK the FUCK OFF prior to you being forced to engage them with weapons fire.
I'm sure there are others uses these are just the three that I am conversant with.

  The key is to remember it is a TEMPORARY measure -

 

[COBRA-6]

Kev, anytime. You have an open invite!

I have been in a few situations where it would have been nice to have some LL options, short of a bayonet, if things got ugly... (where did that riot come from??)

Having more "tools in the box" gives the people on the ground more flexibility in they way they handle a situation. This can only be a good thing.

What we've done in training at 33 bde was to use practice grenades with fuses instead of t-flashes during force-on-force training. More realistic weight, distance able to be thrown, etc... You should have seen the faces of all the people that were "killed" by the umps because their grenade only went about 10m, and they weren't under cover when it went off! Frags are equal opportunity weapons!

Sounds like there's a similar system for bangers, $1 per charge? Money well spent...

 

[KevinB]

Mike some asshat in 1 CMBG decided that the Practise M69's where a DUD/UXO and a hard/steel tgt for BIP'ing so they cannot be used in such training without a 600m safety circle in case of a DUD  :.

  I have a bad feeling the same such asshattedness might be employed by practice Bangers 

 

[foerestedwarrior]

Mike some asshat in 1 CMBG decided that the Practise M69's where a DUD/UXO and a hard/steel tgt for BIP'ing so they cannot be used in such training without a 600m safety circle in case of a DUD  :.

   I have a bad feeling the same such asshattedness might be employed by practice Bangers 

So have they stopped used the training nates with fuses in them? They were a real wake up when you actually use them. Even though the umps get mad if you throw a grenade back at the OPFOR.....

 

[Douke]

Training still being fresh for me, my ears I still ringing with the "thinking soldier" sound. I have always figured that if the "new army" was more involving of the individual thoughts of soldiers, they should be given more tools to reflect the added creativity, especially that kind of tools that from Kevin's comments seems to be making a long step in helping maintaining a good internation image of the CF (since people up above are probably less concerned by such abstract matters as the training and operational safety of their soldiers).

I have been telling to myself for quite some time : " You are new and you are reservist, it's probably just your imagination... Less whining more shoveling in that trench soldier", but I am happy to see much more experienced people than me have opinions looking the same way.

-----------------------------------
"We don't inherit Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." -North American Indian saying
Douke

 

[KevinB]

So have they stopped used the training nates with fuses in them? They were a real wake up when you actually use them. Even though the umps get mad if you throw a grenade back at the OPFOR.....

No idea -- I know that there was a blurb from Edmonton Range Control that they could not be used on the Garrision for training and must be used in Wainwright other other training areas that can accomodate the safety templtae of a hard object BIP

 

[Douke]

If you are talking about the artillery simulators they were still used as of summer 05 TEII on CFB Valcartier

 

[KevinB]

If you are talking about the artillery simulators

No we are not

 

[COBRA-6]

Dud training grenades being a UXO hazard?? They make less of a bang than t-flashes for god sake! Just leave them and deal with them at endex...

Nothing is 100% safe... I've seen several people injured because of careless use of t-flashes... I guess some people would rather say no and CTA than take any sort of risk by allowing *gasp* realistic training.  :

If you are talking about the artillery simulators they were still used as of summer 05 TEII on CFB Valcartier

Nope, not the same, but if the whistle was removed they would probably do the job in a pinch  ;D

 

[westie47]

I had no idea about the training grenades!!!!!!!!!! Totally figures, all we have in Ottawa are asshats. Now that our troops are in harms way what will it take for our military to start training properly.  Will it take us having to suffer needless casualties for that to happen.  Sadly I think it will. Like the new guy in charge of CTS who was just in A-Stan and was horrified to see troops carrying 10-12 mags each! The old saying "it shouldn't take more than one mag to do a section attack!" Anyway I digres.

The flashbang is an excellent tool, I use them operationally all the time, they are very effective.  However they can be a little too effective on your own troops as well, if they don't train with them. Used properly, they will give you a couple of seconds to get through the door. That could mean the difference between life and death. Once you are used to using them, you can work through the flash and bang.  The ones we use are DefTec DD-25's. They have a reusable body, so all you have to do is replace the fuse. Let's see if I can remember the stats on them.....I should know as I am a DD25 instructor! Ok, here goes: distraction devices produce three primary effects, heat, light and sound. The ones we use provide approximately 2000 degrees C of heat for a very short duration(less than 50 milliseconds), 6-8 million candela for approx 9 milliseconds and creates a blast pressure wave of approx 173 - 176 decibels. All in all, a very effective tool, and if you dont see it coming, you WILL NOT work through it!  I love them.