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Re: Body Bags?

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Posted by Ian Edwards <[email protected]> on Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:47:14 -0600
Not disputing the logic of your arguments, but
dead Canadian soldiers were NOT shipped back to Canada
in body bags in WW2 or earlier. I‘m sure this is just
a slip on your part but in case some of the younger readers ...
The MacFarlanes‘ wrote:
>
> In the 90s, just before I took my release, my Unit was allowing women in
> Combat roles artillery. As individuals, some of the females that I
> trained, and worked with, were as able, or more so, than many of the males.
> That aside, I found, and many of my fellow Snr NCOs agreed, that their
> presence had a disruptive effect in the Unit. Not in how they functioned as
> soldiers, but the effects they had on group dynamics. Imagine a unit smoker
> when 3/4 of the male soldiers are trying to gain the affections of one of
> the female soldiers. Or when a pretty, well-endowed, or whatever female
> course candidate is legitimately excelling on a course, when all the sour
> grapes types proclaim it is favouritism. Imagine the affect on a platoon
> when one of your own female members is found raped and tortured at the
> hands of an enemy, as opposed to a similar affect, if the soldier was male.
> Maybe all female units is the way to go, instead of co-ed. Not to open
> another can of worms, but I think the same applies to gays in the military.
> Just as capable as individuals, but the Unit morale is affected negatively
> possibly, even if it is due to archaic or unfounded views.
> On a related story, I was talking to a WWII vet, who was friend of mine, one
> day. He was relating to me a discussion he had had with a young female
> officer who was lividly defending women in combat. The old gent smiled at
> her and said that during the war, he saw a lot of his comrades headed back
> to Canada in body bags, and he thought if half of them would have been
> female, it would have suited him just fine. Of course, she quickly pulled in
> her horns, sputtering that wasn‘t what she meant, etc.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 6:10 PM
> Subject: Re: Manditory service requirement
>
> > Thanks for your support Joan, and I fully agree with what you‘ve said.
> > I think I made the wrong impression when I stated the ‘I‘ wouldn‘t be all
> > that comfortable with forcing women to enlist.
> > Let me explain a little- I think that, as long as he\she can cut it in
> every
> > aspect of the militaryphysically, mentally, etc,, he-she should be
> allowed
> > in to whatever trade she wants into.
> > All I meant is that I personally wouldn‘t feel all that comfortable having
> to
> > go into combat with women. Not that they wouldn‘y be effective soldiers,
> but
> > I know that being the old fashioned guy I am, I would tend to favour them
> > should something happen. Especially if I held a commision and one was
> under
> > my command.
> > Now, I‘m being frank and down to earth. I think, despite your opinions,
> you
> > know I"m not being intentionally prejudice. I just think that way. I often
> > think I actually belonged way back when..... Really. Sometimes I wonder
> why I
> > wasn‘t soldiering during one of our wars. I don‘t know... And, no, I"m not
> > nuts.
> > Sorry for any hard feelings.
> > -Matt
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to [email protected] from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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Posted by [email protected] on Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:04:13 EDT
wow..............I thought the chauvanist days were gone.............I cannot
believe that there is even a discussion about women enlisting. Matt, its
like this..........we are all human beings, and we are all of the human
race..........personally, in war time, I would want the soldier next to me
that was brave enough to even be there!!
Rats‘ Rule
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
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Posted by "The MacFarlanes‘" <[email protected]> on Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:08:57 -0700
I actually thought of that, immediately after I sent it. Maybe I should
commit conversations to memory a little more effectively, in case I want to
use them to illustrate a point years later :- Anyway, your point is well
taken, and hopefully people will have gotten the gist of the anecdote
M MacFarlane
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Edwards"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: Body Bags?
> Not disputing the logic of your arguments, but
> dead Canadian soldiers were NOT shipped back to Canada
> in body bags in WW2 or earlier. I‘m sure this is just
> a slip on your part but in case some of the younger readers ...
>
> The MacFarlanes‘ wrote:
> >
> > In the 90s, just before I took my release, my Unit was allowing women in
> > Combat roles artillery. As individuals, some of the females that I
> > trained, and worked with, were as able, or more so, than many of the
males.
> > That aside, I found, and many of my fellow Snr NCOs agreed, that their
> > presence had a disruptive effect in the Unit. Not in how they functioned
as
> > soldiers, but the effects they had on group dynamics. Imagine a unit
smoker
> > when 3/4 of the male soldiers are trying to gain the affections of one
of
> > the female soldiers. Or when a pretty, well-endowed, or whatever
female
> > course candidate is legitimately excelling on a course, when all the
sour
> > grapes types proclaim it is favouritism. Imagine the affect on a platoon
> > when one of your own female members is found raped and tortured at the
> > hands of an enemy, as opposed to a similar affect, if the soldier was
male.
> > Maybe all female units is the way to go, instead of co-ed. Not to open
> > another can of worms, but I think the same applies to gays in the
military.
> > Just as capable as individuals, but the Unit morale is affected
negatively
> > possibly, even if it is due to archaic or unfounded views.
> > On a related story, I was talking to a WWII vet, who was friend of mine,
one
> > day. He was relating to me a discussion he had had with a young female
> > officer who was lividly defending women in combat. The old gent smiled
at
> > her and said that during the war, he saw a lot of his comrades headed
back
> > to Canada in body bags, and he thought if half of them would have been
> > female, it would have suited him just fine. Of course, she quickly
pulled in
> > her horns, sputtering that wasn‘t what she meant, etc.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From:
> > To:
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 6:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: Manditory service requirement
> >
> > > Thanks for your support Joan, and I fully agree with what you‘ve said.
> > > I think I made the wrong impression when I stated the ‘I‘ wouldn‘t be
all
> > > that comfortable with forcing women to enlist.
> > > Let me explain a little- I think that, as long as he\she can cut it in
> > every
> > > aspect of the militaryphysically, mentally, etc,, he-she should be
> > allowed
> > > in to whatever trade she wants into.
> > > All I meant is that I personally wouldn‘t feel all that comfortable
having
> > to
> > > go into combat with women. Not that they wouldn‘y be effective
soldiers,
> > but
> > > I know that being the old fashioned guy I am, I would tend to favour
them
> > > should something happen. Especially if I held a commision and one was
> > under
> > > my command.
> > > Now, I‘m being frank and down to earth. I think, despite your
opinions,
> > you
> > > know I"m not being intentionally prejudice. I just think that way. I
often
> > > think I actually belonged way back when..... Really. Sometimes I
wonder
> > why I
> > > wasn‘t soldiering during one of our wars. I don‘t know... And, no, I"m
not
> > > nuts.
> > > Sorry for any hard feelings.
> > > -Matt
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to [email protected] from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to [email protected] from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to [email protected] from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
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Posted by "The MacFarlanes‘" <[email protected]> on Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:27:21 -0700
Sorry, but it has nothing to do with being chauvinistic. As I tried to say,
rightly or wrongly, unit cohesion is affected. The Regiment, the Battery,
the Section functions as an entity - one with a set of standards, a set of
values. Regardless of whether the reasoning is sound, or the views
unreasonable, the bottom line is that the personality of the group is
altered. Not once did I try to diminish the performance of individuals,
regardless of gender. I know, from experience that a Unit of any size is far
more complex than a collection of individuals. Melodramatic, maybe, but I
have experienced this, have seen it. If I did not know what I was talking
about, I would not have said it.
M Macfarlane
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: Body Bags?
> wow..............I thought the chauvanist days were gone.............I
cannot
> believe that there is even a discussion about women enlisting. Matt,
its
> like this..........we are all human beings, and we are all of the human
> race..........personally, in war time, I would want the soldier next to me
> that was brave enough to even be there!!
>
> Rats‘ Rule
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to [email protected] from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to [email protected] from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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Posted by "The MacFarlanes‘" <[email protected]> on Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:30:41 -0700
In addition, my discussion pertained to women in combat roles, not banning
them from service altogether, I feel there is a difference
MJM
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: Body Bags?
> wow..............I thought the chauvanist days were gone.............I
cannot
> believe that there is even a discussion about women enlisting. Matt,
its
> like this..........we are all human beings, and we are all of the human
> race..........personally, in war time, I would want the soldier next to me
> that was brave enough to even be there!!
>
> Rats‘ Rule
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to [email protected] from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to [email protected] from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
 
Posted by "Joan O. Arc" <[email protected]> on Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:27:16 GMT
Which, by the way, is my position as well: Mandatory service, yes combat,
probably not unless - maybe, maybe not sure about this one - there are
some women who can truly measure up to *all* the standards men in the Forces
must meet.
By the way, is it true that standards for, say, physical fitness in the
Forces have been watered down in recent years to allow more women to meet
them? One reads about this in the press from time to time - and I‘m
perfectly prepared to believe it All kinds of strange stuff happens in the
name of social engineering! - but I wonder if anyone knows of any specific
examples?
Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: "The MacFarlanes‘"
Reply-To: [email protected]
To:
Subject: Re: Body Bags?
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:30:41 -0700
In addition, my discussion pertained to women in combat roles, not banning
them from service altogether, I feel there is a difference
MJM
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: Body Bags?
> wow..............I thought the chauvanist days were gone.............I
cannot
> believe that there is even a discussion about women enlisting. Matt,
its
> like this..........we are all human beings, and we are all of the human
> race..........personally, in war time, I would want the soldier next to
me
> that was brave enough to even be there!!
>
> Rats‘ Rule
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to [email protected] from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to [email protected] from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
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Posted by "Koop -" <[email protected]> on Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:47:23 EDT
Just a quick word on the issue of women enlisting in the Forces If some one
can do the job better than I, then they should get the job. Race, gender,
dissability and education shouldn‘t factor into the equation of who‘s better
for the job. If I may steal a quote from our Jolly Green friends to the
south "We have white Marines, we have black Marines, we even have bumpy
Marines, but they‘re all still Marines."
Koop
_________________________________________________________________________
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Posted by "Michael O‘Leary" <[email protected]> on Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:31:01 -0400
Physical fitness standards for Recruiting have perhaps been lowered over the
past few years to broaden the range of potential candidates getting in the
door. This has not necessarily had the desired effect, many of these
candidates fail in later training where physical standards have not been
lowered to the same extent or at all in practice.
For example, I saw in the infantry Regular Force QL3 training that
attrition rates remained consistently high - 30-40. If anyone believes that
any physical fitness standards were lowered just to allow more women to
pass, the stats do not support the premise. If it were true, I think we
would have also seen a higher percentage of men passing. Personally I
believe any lowering of standards was to meet a general degradation of the
fitness levels of our youth, NOT specifically to ensure more women complete
training.
Just my humble opinion.
Mike
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/
2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
----- Original Message -----
From: Joan O. Arc
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: Body Bags?
> By the way, is it true that standards for, say, physical fitness in the
> Forces have been watered down in recent years to allow more women to meet
> them? One reads about this in the press from time to time - and I‘m
> perfectly prepared to believe it All kinds of strange stuff happens in
the
> name of social engineering! - but I wonder if anyone knows of any
specific
> examples?
>
> Joan
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to [email protected] from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
 
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