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RMC - bachelor straight into master program

McG

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I have seen a few incidents of RMC ROTP students who are kept at the college after graduation to complete a masters degree before heading to a first real posting. These are not individuals who were kept in the education system because they needed to do something while waiting for a spot in the training system; these were individuals who achieved their occupational training requirements yet were retained in the education system for a more advanced degree ... and (as best as I can tell) their first postings were not linked to a requirement for the attained PG.

Does anyone know if this still happens and, if it does still occur, how often does it happen?
... and why?
 

Blackadder1916

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I have seen a few incidents of RMC ROTP students who are kept at the college after graduation to complete a masters degree before heading to a first real posting. These are not individuals who were kept in the education system because they needed to do something while waiting for a spot in the training system; these were individuals who achieved their occupational training requirements yet were retained in the education system for a more advanced degree ... and (as best as I can tell) their first postings were not linked to a requirement for the attained PG.

Does anyone know if this still happens and, if it does still occur, how often does it happen?
... and why?

I don't know how often it stills occurs, but Annex B to CFAO 9-33 may explain some of the why and how.

CFAO 9-33 POST-GRADUATE TRAINING PROGRAMS REGULAR FORCE AND PRIMARY RESERVE

ANNEX B -- TRAINING ON SCHOLARSHIPS PROGRAMME

PURPOSE
1. This annex prescribes the policy and procedures governing the
acceptance of post-graduate (PG) scholarships by officers of the Regular
Force following graduation from baccalaureate level university courses.

ELIGIBILITY
2. For the purpose of this annex, eligibility extends to officers of the
Regular Force who are in their final year of baccalaureate study attending
a Canadian Military College or university under:

a. the Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP) - CFAO 9-12;

b. the University Training Plan -Non-commissioned members (UTPM) - CFAO 9-13;

c. the University Training Plan -Officers (UTPO) - CFAO 9-40; or

d. special authority while on leave without pay (LWOP).

3. Receipt of a PG scholarship by an officer of the Regular Force does
not automatically imply that the officer will be permitted by NDHQ to
proceed on such training.

4. Eligibility to proceed on scholarship training will take into
account:
a. the officer's academic and military records;
b. the military applicability of the PG course; and
c. the prestige associated with the scholarship.

5. Preference will be given to those scholarships that are universally
recognized, such as the Rhodes scholarship. As a further guide,
scholarships that will be considered by NDHQ will normally be those in the
high dollar value range that do not require the candidate to expend more
than six hours of work a week for the university concerned. Scholarships
usually considered as teaching or research assistant-ships offered by
universities are, for purposes of the PG programme, not considered to be
prestigious and therefore are excluded.

ANNUAL QUOTA
6. No specific quotas are established for PG scholarship training. Attendance will be determined annually by NDHQ, based on the availability of officers and current military requirements.

SELECTION PROCEDURES
7. The selection of candidates who will be authorized to pursue
scholarships with subsequent attendance on PG-On-Scholarship training
directly on graduation is controlled by NDHQ/DGPCO. The aim of the
selection process is to ensure that only those undergraduates who have a
good record of military performance and a high level of academic
achievement are authorized to pursue scholarships.

8. The selection board will convene in early December of each year.
Applicants shall forward, through the Canadian Military College (CMC) or
the university liaison officer (ULO), to NDHQ/DPCAO, their request to be
considered in the competition, using the form at Appendix 1. Applications
must reach NDHQ no later than 30 November.

9. The applicant is not required to have made application to the
academic institution for a scholarship before the selection board convenes
as this step is not necessary prior to consideration in the initial
selection process. It is essential, however, that the intended graduate
programme and proposed field of study be clearly stated.

10. The selection board will review the files of all applicants and,
based on merit and military requirements, recommend for the approval of
DGPCO, those applicants deserving of PG-On-Scholarship training. This
phase of selection only serves to authorize successful applicants to pursue
the acquisition of a scholarship; it is not a guarantee of final approval
to proceed with PG-On-Scholarship training.

11. All applicants will be advised of the disposition of their
application, and the successful applicants will be given specific direction
regarding the follow-up action required.

12. Successful candidates who are awarded a prestigious scholarship shall
forward, through the CMC or commander of the support base, to NDHQ/DPCAO,
particulars of the scholarship complete with the additional information
that will have been directed in accordance with paragraph 11. In this
phase of the selection process, particulars of the scholarship,
recommendation of the CMC or he base commander and ULO and military
requirement will be reviewed. Final approval and authority to proceed with
PG-On-Scholarship training will then be issued.

. . .
 

kev994

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I’ve ummm… ‘heard’ of a person getting a back door deal while awaiting pilot training. Getting posted back to Kingston for “OJT” and doing a full-time Master’s program on an ILP as that OJT. Not at all within the intent of the ILP program and the BPSO was really mad when they found out. This would have been over 10 years ago so YMMV.
 

AmmoTech90

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I know of one who who was under para 12 of the CFAO (received a Rhodes Scholarship or equivalent) and went right into their Masters after RMC. I also know of one who was posted to DRDC right after graduation and then went back a couple of years later for PG, research, and instructional duties. No real experience in their occupation, but provided good service to the CAF.
 

Edward Campbell

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I know of one who who was under para 12 of the CFAO (received a Rhodes Scholarship or equivalent) and went right into their Masters after RMC. I also know of one who was posted to DRDC right after graduation and then went back a couple of years later for PG, research, and instructional duties. No real experience in their occupation, but provided good service to the CAF.
Ditto, but way back in the mid 1960s: Bob Harrison and Robin Boadway (both 1964).
 

MJP

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I have seen a few incidents of RMC ROTP students who are kept at the college after graduation to complete a masters degree before heading to a first real posting. These are not individuals who were kept in the education system because they needed to do something while waiting for a spot in the training system; these were individuals who achieved their occupational training requirements yet were retained in the education system for a more advanced degree ... and (as best as I can tell) their first postings were not linked to a requirement for the attained PG.

Does anyone know if this still happens and, if it does still occur, how often does it happen?
... and why?
I have to check if there are any recent ones but the Log Branch did this with regularity for people taking the RMC MBA. It was always baffling as there is almost zero value to the organization to allow it. One factor might be that it was during a time period where there was a long back log for Log trg due to only running one crse a year. people sat for a few years waiting to get trained so maybe it was a way of gainfully employing them

Seth Meyers Whatever GIF by Late Night with Seth Meyers
 

ballz

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I know of one person (Infantry Officer) going directly into their Masters after finishing their phase training and becoming OFP.... it was definitely a rare situation (the only one I know of). They also finished top of the academic program at RMC, so I'm sure that had something to do with it. And his first posting was not tied his post-grad.... he finished is Master's and then got posted to a Battalion to be a Platoon Commander for his baseline employment just like the rest of us.
 

Navy_Pete

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Having just finished a Masters I would say the real 'value added' for the CAF was my experience and taking that to tailor the thesis output into something directly related to the RCN. However, if you had a very involved sponsor who needed someone to look into a specific issue this could be useful. Vaguely remember someone doing some very particular cyber related research on a Masters that was specific to one of the systems, so the output was directly used by the sponsor (even if the person went off to do their phase training).

Probably a better use of time than shredding paper as a PAT I guess, but think the PG program is being limited due to funding issues so hopefully doesn't happen like this frequently.
 

McG

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Funding is probably the lesser of costs if the degree is being pursued at RMC. The problematic cost is the year long consumption of a person when we don't have people enough to fill our establishments.
 

dapaterson

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Maybe the question is whether the role of RMC is to produce officers for the CAF, or if the role of the CAF is to provide students for RMC?
 

MSmith

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I have seen a few incidents of RMC ROTP students who are kept at the college after graduation to complete a masters degree before heading to a first real posting. These are not individuals who were kept in the education system because they needed to do something while waiting for a spot in the training system; these were individuals who achieved their occupational training requirements yet were retained in the education system for a more advanced degree ... and (as best as I can tell) their first postings were not linked to a requirement for the attained PG.

Does anyone know if this still happens and, if it does still occur, how often does it happen?
... and why?
I have a few friends who did the "PG on Schol" program after graduating - as AmmoTech90 alluded to the program is really for those who are offered an exceptional scholarship and would be crazy to decline it. Certainly if I had the choice between accepting a Rhodes Scholarship and starting a military career, I would always defer the military career for the scholarship whether given the option to return without questions after or not (even if that meant release). To me, the real intent of the program is to retain those who clearly have the ability and are given the opportunity to study at the postgraduate level, but would like to continue studying full time before beginning their career.

For those questioning the cost to the CAF, read the policy:
"As a further guide, scholarships that will be considered by NDHQ will normally be those in the high dollar value range that do not require the candidate to expend more than six hours of work a week for the university concerned. Scholarships usually considered as teaching or research assistant-ships offered by universities are, for purposes of the PG programme, not considered to be prestigious and therefore are excluded."

As I said, it's designed towards students who receive scholarships that will pay most costs. Not always the case, but that is the spirit of the policy.
Funding is probably the lesser of costs if the degree is being pursued at RMC. The problematic cost is the year long consumption of a person when we don't have people enough to fill our establishments.
The program doesn't have to be at RMC. In fact, I've never met anyone who went on to do this at RMC as RMC doesn't really provide scholarships on the scale that you'd think of. As the policy states: "6. No specific quotas are established for PG scholarship training. Attendance will be determined annually by NDHQ, based on the availability of officers and current military requirements." If we desperately needed these officers, they wouldn't be allowed to go. Or circling back to my first point, if they are going to leave to accept the scholarship anyways, why not retain them with obligatory service following to boot?

Maybe the question is whether the role of RMC is to produce officers for the CAF, or if the role of the CAF is to provide students for RMC?
Very insightful opinion, especially given what I said above that the overwhelming majority of the pers who go on this program don't do it at RMC. Have a read of this article. I don't claim it to be gospel but it might give you some perspective. There is certainly a role for RMC whether 100% of the graduates go on to become officers in the CAF or not, and there is certainly a role for education in the military.

I think the bigger question to ask is - why is there still such an anti-intellectual attitude in our military?
 
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