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Sergeant Major Marching Up & Down the Parade Square - Return to Spit & Polish

Occam

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But our Army captain is correct in asserting that one of the warning signs of deterioration in the military during peacetime is an emphasis on appearance over effectiveness.

I like that. 

It's the first thing that came to mind when I read the recent mass e-mail reminding NCR military pers that the MacKenzie-King station (outside 101 Col By) is the only bus stop in a non-saluting zone, and that salutes are required at all other bus stops.  I wish I had a nickel for every time I've seen someone in uniform get off one of the transitway buses at Lebreton Stn, and make a mad dash for one of the Gatineau-bound buses on Booth St.  Inevitably, someone salutes the mad-dasher, causing the mad-dasher to drop out of high gear (resulting in a multiple-civvy pileup behind him/her) in order to return the salute.  It's like something out of Monty Python.  (This scene is played out at several bus stops around the NCR - by no means is it solely a Lebreton Stn issue.)

What's that saying about common sense?
 
Occam said:
What's that saying about common sense?

Nothing worse than stopping and stepping out of your vehicle to stand on a public access highway to salute the National Flag while it is raised or lowered outside of the main gate at CFB Gagetown. There are things we salute; commissioned officers are one of them; population density of those officers really means nothing to me as I think it interesting to watch them try to rush to avoid ... same thing occured during my posting at 8 Wg when they would literally break into a trot trying to get onto the flight line before you got close enough to salute them. Interesting times.

All will be moot once moved to the Nortel site ...

:)
 
*Sigh* I'm already seeing the rumblings as things wind down. All those spit and polish types who have hidden in the dark corners for years, are now coming back out into the light. Conformity and snappy drill will now replace functionality and combat capability.
 
I can agree with some of the points that are made and are going to be made. The truth is we are in the CF and things such as salutes, parades etc are part of the job.
Yes, we are going to see a return to Drill and Ceremonial, as we should. The op tempo of the last 10 years has seen a decline in our dress, drill etc and a few ceremonial parades in DEU 1A wouldn't hurt.
As for the "garatroopers" (garrison troopers, the kind that can soldier well in garrison but not so well in the training area....if they go at all)......well.....hmmmm.....words fail me.....
 
Staff Weenie said:
*Sigh* I'm already seeing the rumblings as things wind down. All those spit and polish types who have hidden in the dark corners for years, are now coming back out into the light. Conformity and snappy drill will now replace functionality and combat capability.

Then it's time that someone sits down and writes the combat skill maintenance plan, or at least a way to keep unit chains of command and troops busy with useful work, within the constraint envelopes.

Assumptions -

1.  A tighter budget; no money, no ammo, limited mileage allowance for "A" vehicles.
2.  No regular operational tour on horizon, i.e., no regular pre-deployment training cycles.
3.  Train to need lifts its ugly head driven by budget constraints; no authority for running course without define training requirements.

Welcome back to the 1980s, when the parade square, cleaning vehicles/kit, and the platoon room were all equally unsatisfying solutions to "keeping busy" between exercises.

Unfortunately, when the numbers of disgruntled troops increases because they are unsatisfied with garrison life; there's an exponential increase in the pers admin burden the minority creates for the chain of command. Time which could be spent on planning low budget local training gets consumed writing C&P memos and recommendations for BPSO interviews (etc., etc., etc.) With most officers and many NCOs tied to desk and computers by this surge in admin, and still no frequent exercises, you're left with the remaining unit staff and a lot of bored troops and nothing on the schedule for six weeks before a change of command. Unfortunately, in the absence of a more defined plan, the "solution" becomes obvious to any Sergeant Major trying to keep troops busy enough to reduce extra admin and disciplinary problems (at least during working hours).

New solutions are always welcome, and the Army Journal is always looking for articles.
 
Staff Weenie said:
*Sigh* I'm already seeing the rumblings as things wind down. All those spit and polish types who have hidden in the dark corners for years, are now coming back out into the light. Conformity and snappy drill will now replace functionality and combat capability.

LOL. You're talking to a CSM --- what the heck did you expect me to respond like?? "Conformity" and discipline is the cornerstone of a well-disciplined and professional force --- always has been. Google the origin of 'decimate'.

It is, after all, a two way street. Outside of those bus stops ... the troops would hang if they didn't salute an Officer even if their NCM hands were full of boxes of work files etc ...

I'm pretty sure it wasn't the troops complaining about having to salute ...
 
a Sig Op said:
Here I was hoping this would end in more discussion on effective/in-effective running shoes... nope, random executions...

Back to the original topic though, it's a rather flimsy excuse to ban the shoes... there's already plenty of variation in running shoes... one has to wonder, what sort of shift would result in them being re-allowed?

That's not what the article intended. The intent of this particular thread is to discuss the way ahead in a post combat mission Afghanistan CF. You will see the "spit and polish" types appear, and I'm one of them, to a certain extent (not extreme). What's the problem with a few ceremonial parades ie Trooping of the Colour?
Besides, it was the US Army that banned them, NOT the CF. What the US Army does WRT to dress and deportment etc is not our concern. Our concern is the CF.

 
For some reason, this reminds me of the kind of person who will argue at mess meetings that you should wear socks (preferably black) with sandals.  What is it with some people having hang-ups about feet/toes?  ???  don't we have better things to worry about?


Unprofessional?  Really?  You mean as bad as the chunky plastic frame glasses the US Army issues?  ::)
 
Jim Seggie said:
That's not what the article intended. The intent of this particular thread is to discuss the way ahead in a post combat mission Afghanistan CF. You will see the "spit and polish" types appear, and I'm one of them, to a certain extent (not extreme). What's the problem with a few ceremonial parades ie Trooping of the Colour?

I'm one of them spit & polish types, too, Jim.  But when the rubber meets the road, I'm a field soldier first.  I'd daresay that most of today's Army RSMs are similar in thought.  We see drill and ceremonial as crucial to maintaining unit pride, celebrating history and honouring our fallen.  But we firstly see our role as preparing our units to fight the next war (not the last war).

Yes, conformity will return.  Troops will say to me "non issue kit worked in Afghanistan".  I'll say, "issue kit worked, too - and it's free!".  Now's our chance to use the system to make issued kit the gear of choice before we go somewhere nasty again and re-learn a bunch of hard lessons.

Now - where's my pace stick?
 
Haggis said:
Now - where's my pace stick?

Mine is in my truck. I tend not to carry it  in CADPAT on the Wing.

BTW I agree with your assessment of the situation.
 
Good2Golf said:
Unprofessional?  Really?  You mean as bad as the chunky plastic frame glasses the US Army issues?  ::)

Hey!! I broke 4 pair of those!!! Ever try wearing them during a monsoon?......need wipers....
 
Staff Weenie said:
*Sigh* I'm already seeing the rumblings as things wind down. All those spit and polish types who have hidden in the dark corners for years, are now coming back out into the light. Conformity and snappy drill will now replace functionality and combat capability.

I've never understood why some folks seem to feel that these two concepts are mutually exclusive.  I've always argued that a professional serviceman (or woman) needs to be good both in the field AND in garrison.  The two go together and should not be separated.  Although I will admit that there are plenty of "garret troopers" who look great on parade, but are useless on operations, I can honestly say that I've never found the the reverse to be true.  In my experience a screw-up in garrison is a screw-up on operations as well.

I'm one of those folks who believes we've let the pendulum swing too far in one direction.  Seeing public parades of soldiers downtown in CADPAT or change of command parades in home port with sailors in NCDs rots my socks down to the bottom of my military soul.  The excuse is that it's easier and it proves we're "operationally-focused."  What utter crap! To me it says, "we're lazy and have difficulty looking after ourselves!"  Furthermore, I have never understood why anyone sitting in an office should wear anything other than service dress.  Environmental clothing is for use when you are working in a particular environment that requires it.  CADPAT at a desk on the 11th floor at NDHQ is ridiculous.

Having said the above (and in order to get back on topic), I will point out that all clothing has a time and place.  If soldiers wish to do PT in a particular type of shoe, I think they should be allowed to do so provided that it doesn't interfere with the type of training being conducted, that the soldier is properly versed in the correct use of the item and that it does not lead to injury.  If the Army wants to dictate a particular type of shoe, then it really should provide that shoe as an issue item.
 
Don't get me wrong folks - wearing DEU in a pure office job is fine. It projects at atmosphere of professionalism, and I've no problem with that (except for wool pants in Ottawa in humid 30 degree weather). And I've no problem with ensuring that the hair is cut, the shave is close, and the boots are polished. Wearing Ray-Bans on top of your head ain't on either.

It's that we've spent a lot of time pushing hard to get training focussed on producing capable people to support operations. We only have so many training days available, I don't want to lose time to needless pomp and pagentry. Or, lining up troops to make sure that only the black inner socks are worn vice other products.

As for the 'shoes' - I'm tempted to try them - I wonder what they would do with plantar fasciitis???
 
Topic: Sergeant Major Marching Up & Down the Parade Square - Return to Spit & Polish - see here.
 
Pusser said:
... or change of command parades in home port with sailors in NCDs ...

Good lord! Looks like I left the Navy at the right time :). We would have been shot in my days if we did our day work onboard a ship in harbour in anything else than the appropriate DEU/CF (yes, long sleeves shirt and tie in winter) or failed to put it on when just traveling from the Dockyard to Stad.
 
CoC parades.........yes, another worthwhile effort  ::)

Lost 3 days of training, at a critical time for my unit, because someone showed up for work, told us how busy we are and then went on leave for 3 weeks.

I would rather have had the 3 days to get my troops ready for the war we're sending them to.
 
In my world, every single day is training.  Any time spent on "Marching up and down the Parade Square" or "Spit and polish" is training lost.  I really don't care if someones boots are black from polish or grey from the dust.  As long as they do their job properly.
 
Pusser said:
I've never understood why some folks seem to feel that these two concepts are mutually exclusive.  I've always argued that a professional serviceman (or woman) needs to be good both in the field AND in garrison.  The two go together and should not be separated.  Although I will admit that there are plenty of "garret troopers" who look great on parade, but are useless on operations, I can honestly say that I've never found the the reverse to be true.  In my experience a screw-up in garrison is a screw-up on operations as well.

I'm one of those folks who believes we've let the pendulum swing too far in one direction.  Seeing public parades of soldiers downtown in CADPAT or change of command parades in home port with sailors in NCDs rots my socks down to the bottom of my military soul.  The excuse is that it's easier and it proves we're "operationally-focused."  What utter crap! To me it says, "we're lazy and have difficulty looking after ourselves!"  Furthermore, I have never understood why anyone sitting in an office should wear anything other than service dress.  Environmental clothing is for use when you are working in a particular environment that requires it.  CADPAT at a desk on the 11th floor at NDHQ is ridiculous.

Having said the above (and in order to get back on topic), I will point out that all clothing has a time and place.  If soldiers wish to do PT in a particular type of shoe, I think they should be allowed to do so provided that it doesn't interfere with the type of training being conducted, that the soldier is properly versed in the correct use of the item and that it does not lead to injury.  If the Army wants to dictate a particular type of shoe, then it really should provide that shoe as an issue item.


I'm with Pusser on this one. Our military personnel, of all sorts, need to be able to do it all, and do it all right, as and when required. There are times and places for everything - including parades in the Air Force. When it's the right time then I expect that all officers and NCOs, of all services, will want to do it well, which is to say do it right.

I also agree with Pusser re: appropriate dress of the day for various places and forms of duty.

 
E.R. Campbell said:
When it's the right time then I expect that all officers and NCOs, of all services, will want to do it well, which is to say do it right.

For me it is not a question of doing it "right" or doing it "wrong", it is a question of "more important things to do. I recently witnessed a USN change of command and they didn't run parade practice for 2 days and then used an entire day for parade and related events. They gathered everyone involved in a hangar, said a few words, signed documents and carried on. I would hardly accuse them of doing it "wrong".

We use enough of our soldier's time on things that really matter and often run short, let us not use more on things like parades and dog & pony shows for commanders to look over their fiefdoms. That sort of thing belongs in another time..........
 
SupersonicMax said:
In my world, every single day is training.  Any time spent on "Marching up and down the Parade Square" or "Spit and polish" is training lost.  I really don't care if someones boots are black from polish or grey from the dust.  As long as they do their job properly.

Yeah, we've been over this before and we know your thoughts. As Edward says, there's a time and a place for everything in the military, and when expected to do it, you're expected to do it right. I've been mortified and embarassed when 'other arms' are suddenly called to parades for funerals, etc and are total bags of shit, drill and deportment wise, because "They had better things to do" instead of paying attention TO THE BASICS. I've spent time in the AirForce and I've seen pilots on parade ::)

You're paid to do a fucking job. And "to do that job properly" also includes staying current and precise in ALL aspects of your job, including drill and deportment.

Want to fly and be a gluebag? Join Air Canada. I've got no time for Tom Hank's Top Gun wannabees.
 
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