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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate

Enzo

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http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20060607.aspx

The study concluded that, if troops aimed higher, and fired two shots, they would have a better chance of dropping people right away.  The report recommended more weapons training for the troops, so they will be better able to put two 5.56mm bullets where they will do enough damage to stop oncoming enemy troops.

The study did not address complaints about long range shots (over 100 meters), or the need for ammo that is better a blasting through doors and walls.

The army had been considering a switch of a larger (6.8mm) round, and the Special Forces has been testing such a round in the field. But a switch is apparently off the table at the moment.

These are a few excerpts from the article posted to the website cited above. I'm unfamiliar with this site, therefore I am uncertain as to the validity of the contents. I was unable to find a second reference to corroborate these findings. Having said that, it would appear as though the 5.56mm M855 is going to carry on as the primary choice for the U.S. Army within the foreseeable future.
 
101 metres is a long range shot?

I believe 7.62mm is still in the system as an alternative.
 
paracowboy said:
paracowboy disagrees. They win, but I'm right. ;)

What would you prefer?

Kirkhill said:
I believe 7.62mm is still in the system as an alternative.

6.8mm SPC would only require an upper receiver and magazine switch while using the current lower receivers.  Obviously, a new personal weapon would have to be bought if switching to 7.62mm, but I don't believe that is what you're implying.  What was your idea?

Enzo said:
Having said that, it would appear as though the 5.56mm M855 is going to carry on as the primary choice for the U.S. Army within the foreseeable future.

Unless a switch to Mk 262 is made.
 
5.56mm is fine

Mk262 is better than C77/M855

 
Kal - being a bit of a smartass I guess.

It just seems that people want to go reinventing wheels when the wheel already exists.  If the 5.56 isn't enough then I wouldn't have thought it would be too difficult to put the 7.62 back into service with AR-10s/FNs/M14s/G3s etc.
 
Kirkhill said:
Kal - being a bit of a smartass I guess.

It just seems that people want to go reinventing wheels when the wheel already exists.  If the 5.56 isn't enough then I wouldn't have thought it would be too difficult to put the 7.62 back into service with AR-10s/FNs/M14s/G3s etc.

Gotcha'  ;)

There isn't an easy answer, the choices all have advantages and disadvantages over each other.  Perhaps the easiest answer to say is 'shot placement.'  However, this is also the answer which is the most difficult to attain.  It's easy enough to say make an upper torso/head shot, but it isn't so easy trying to make a running head shot into a car at 200 metres.  With that said, I'll keep training and striving for a CAG/JTF2/KevinB/DEVGRU level of shooting. 

I decided to scratch one of the examples.  There's enough people stroking this individual's ego.... ;D
 
June 7, 2006: The U.S. Army completed a study of current 5.56mm M855 round, in response to complaints from troops that this ammunition was inadequate in combat. Troops reported many instances where enemy fighters were hit with one or more M855 rounds and kept coming. The study confirmed that this happened, and discovered why. If the M855 bullet hits slender people at the right angle, and does not hit a bone, it goes right through. That will do some soft tissue damage, but nothing immediately incapacitating.
This information in this study is not new, our troops knew that the C7 had reduced stopping power back in 1986 when the C7 was first introduced, and the men who had been involved in Cyprus with the Turks voiced the same concerns!  One of the explanations, outside of following NATO standards, was that since we were involved in peacekeeping operations, we did not require ammunition that caused massive flesh trauma.   

The study examined other military and commercial 5.56mm rounds and found that none of them did the job any better. The study concluded that, if troops aimed higher, and fired two shots, they would have a better chance of dropping people right away. 
Are they recommending shooting at the head or heart rather than for center of mass?  This also tends to disregard  the fact that the enemy is moving and using cover, maing them much more difficult to hit than on a test firing range. 

The report recommended more weapons training for the troops, so they will be better able to put two 5.56mm bullets where they will do enough damage to stop oncoming enemy troops. 
Typical - blame the troops for having poor marksmanship rather than providing a weapon that will stop an enemy with one shot.  Perhaps we shold also blame the enemy forces for not standing still long enough?

The study did not address complaints about long range shots (over 100 meters), or the need for ammo that is better a blasting through doors and walls.
100 m is long range??? 

Spontaneous thoughts.....
 
Kal said:
What would you prefer?
6.8mm or, failing that (which ain't gonna fly anytime soon) Mk 262. With one 7.62 rifle (AR-10 comes immediately to mind, as muscle memory would be an asset) per section, and two per Coy Wpns Det, in the hands of Designated Marksmen. 
 
Infidel-6 said:
5.56mm is fine

Mk262 is better than C77/M855

I am in 100% agreement here. In service for over 40yrs, and the improvements have been noted since the original 55g M193 was left in the dust back in the early 1980s (although still common outside the circle). The new Mk262 has had some good reviews, adn I lokk forward to gaining more INT on this new ctg.

Cheers,

Wes
 
paracowboy said:
6.8mm or, failing that (which ain't gonna fly anytime soon) Mk 262. With one 7.62 rifle (AR-10 comes immediately to mind, as muscle memory would be an asset) per section, and two per Coy Wpns Det, in the hands of Designated Marksmen. 

While both the 6.8mm and Mk 262 options are not foreseeable at this time, is a 7.62mm DM rifle anymore realistic?  Even if a DM rifle if put forth, only that shooter's lethality is increased, leaving their teammates still using 5.56mm.  That's to say that the DM is equipped with a 7.62mm weapon and not a 5.56mm weapon (C7CT).  Then again, some is better than none..

For the record, I do agree with your idea.  Well, at least the Mk 262 and DM rifle parts.  I'm not sure if it makes sense, at least logistically, for us (Canadian mil.) to solely re-chamber to 6.8mm without our allies, namely the U.S. doing the same.
 
Is the 262 not an option because of the sniper association or because Black Hills only makes so much of it each year?
 
The study concluded that, if troops aimed higher, and fired two shots, they would have a better chance of dropping people right away.  The report recommended more weapons training for the troops, so they will be better able to put two 5.56mm bullets where they will do enough damage to stop oncoming enemy troops.

5.56 is a good round in most of its incarnates.....Any round has three things that are critical when it comes to 'neutralizing' an enemy that the soldier can control.

1. Shot Placement.
2. Shot Placement.
3. Shot Placement.

Hit 'em in the 'off switch' or put a bunch of rounds in the 'hurts a lot' zone.

Everything else....Pentration, Deformation of the round, Permanent Cavity, etc, etc, ad nauseum en in fintum... is beyond the control of the brass dropper.
 
In regards to the 7.62 round and DM per Platoon and Coy, with the introduction of the .338 lupa and the rifle, the Bn's now have a surplus of C3's...and I know my Bn has though of that and is using it to it's advantage (feel free to speculate but I'm not going any farther with it)

As for the 5.56 round it was noted back in Somalia what was occurring with the round on slim people ( that is of course noted from the book Blackhawk Down) it was always discussed at my level among section Comdr's and down on what to do during and engagement using the 5.56 round and it was a concensus that you continue firing at your intended target till that target was down and stayed down. If that took 2 rounds then fine if it took a mag well so be it but you know your target is no longer a threat.

I think the real issue for our soldiers would/will be turkey necking during the engagement where they fire 2 rounds or so then take their eyes off the target and look to see if they hit( which from what I have heard is a very common reaction to shooting at a live target for the first time) and if the round passes through means that the target will be able to move to cover again.

Although shot placement can be somewhat controlled in term of point of aim generally speaking it's more mass of rounds striking the target doing damage then shot placement IMO that is. No I am not advocating the spray and pray or the bang off rounds in a general direction methods, but if you put 15 rounds into a target all aimed the hydrostatic shock alone will damage organs to such a  degree as to be lethal ( Medics more familiar with it please correct me if I am right out of er) let alone the better chance of rounds passing through the heart and lungs.
 
Going back to first principles, the 5.56 X 45 was adopted so soldiers could carry more ammunition, have a personal weapon (assault rifle) capable of somewhat controlled automatic fire (anyone who remembers firing a burst from an FN-C2 will know what I mean), and had a flat trajectory which made teaching marksmanship at expected battle ranges quicker and easier.

Given the vast sunk costs and ready availability of 5.56 X 45, it is more probable the ammunition will become outmoded when plasma rifles in the 25 watt range become available. The laws of diminishing returns apply here. A 6.5 or 6.8 is better than a 5.56, but it is not that much better, and of course there will always be a situation where a 7mm would be even better, or 7.62 X 51 better yet, or .460 Weatherby magnum better still. 5.56 is "good enough" for the sorts of combat in the post WW II era, involving short range engagements at fleeting targets, and offering the rifleman the ability to influence the battle with a high volume of firepower (the Sturmgewehr 44 was the first weapon really designed from the ground up and mass issued to reflect these principles). You will get a lot more out of intensive marksmanship training than changing the calibre of the rifle.

If the expected conditions of combat were to change radically, then it would make sense to go to new principles and design new systems to reflect, but drawn out and expensive failures like the British EM-2, US SPIW and ACR or German G-11 show, things haven't changed enough to warrent a wholesale change in weaponry.
 
It's all about kinetic energy.  Doubling a projectile's mass will double kinetic energy.  Doubling a projectile's velocity will quadruple kinetic energy.  So, the calibre isn't the only thing, but mass of the projectile.  (FYI: KE=1/2massxVelocity 2)  Given that a longer barrel will produce a higher muzzle velocity, perhaps the bullet is fine (I really don't know, just asking), but is there a way to increase barrel length without increasing overall weapon length? (eg: "Bullpup" design?)
 
Wow when I joined the Army I thought my days of physics were long behind me....in fact I figured the only math I would need to know was count to 29 change mag!  ;D

The issue with bullpup design IMO is you're losing overall weapon length, which means that in terms of bayonet fighting your at closer ranges then we are now. Think about it the C7 at just over a meter I believe is longer then almost all Bullpup's meaning that in a bayonet fight the advantage goes to the C7. Also in my experience which is limited I will admit with bullpups I find they are more complicated in manufacture and the moving parts tend to jam easier (like I said I'm basing this observation on the 2 bullpups I have fired the SA80 and the SA80A2 and yes I know they aren't good examples).

I'll keep my C7 and just aim higher and shoot more at a single target.
 
For terminal effect info
http://www.bordeninstitute.army.mil/emrgncywarsurg/default.html

Click on the file of Weapon Effects and Parachute Injuries


Additionally  http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=273976



Duey -- some idiot JAG determined the Mk262 not suitable for general issue (this is out of KAF  -- despite its use elsewhere in the Forces)








 
"The average
point forward distance in tissue is about 12 cm, after
which it yaws to about 90°, flattens, and then breaks at
the cannalure (a groove placed around the mid section
of the bullet). The slightly heavier M-855 bullet used
with the M-16A2 rifle, shows a similar pattern to the M-
193 bullet" - Taken from the article posted by I6

So if I am reading that right it takes nearly a foot of soft tissue damage before you get optimal effects from the 5.56mm round and the difference between the M-193 and the M-855 is negligible.

So then we really should be trained to shoot at the upper chest area, there by hitting bone and achieving fragmentation and tumble at near impact distance.

Am I interpreting that wrong?

 
Some of the gelatin shots on AR15.com give a better perspective.

However the typical M855/C77 lot has a 7" Neck in Gel -- before yawing and fragmentation at the cannelure occurs.

 
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