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US Army drops 105mm Stryker?

Kilo_302

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Hey guys,

I have a buddy who is an 11 Charlie in the US Army's 2ID. The 2ID is known as the "Stryker Brigade" as they were the first unit to receive Strykers, and are generally the "test bed" of the US Army.  He was visiting over the holidays, and told me that the US Army is scrapping the 105mm gun equipped Strykers due to stability and high centre of gravity problems. I was surprised as I had heard nothing of this, and could not find any verification of it in print or in online resources. Can anyone confirm or dispute this claim? Aside from the 105mm, according to my friend, the 120mm mortar carrier and the .50 cal RWS Strykers are great pieces of kit, and are getting rave reviews from 2ID soldiers in Iraq and the US.

Thanks
 
Kilo_302 said:
Hey guys,

I have a buddy who is an 11 Charlie in the US Army's 2ID. The 2ID is known as the "Stryker Brigade" as they were the first unit to receive Strykers, and are generally the "test bed" of the US Army.  He was visiting over the holidays, and told me that the US Army is scrapping the 105mm gun equipped Strykers due to stability and high centre of gravity problems. I was surprised as I had heard nothing of this, and could not find any verification of it in print or in online resources. Can anyone confirm or dispute this claim? Aside from the 105mm, according to my friend, the 120mm mortar carrier and the .50 cal RWS Strykers are great pieces of kit, and are getting rave reviews from 2ID soldiers in Iraq and the US.

Thanks

Still have not seen anything regarding this ....has anyone else?
 
He could be referring to the MGS or the 105mm SP howitzer developed by General Dynamics. Personally I would like to see MGS canceled in favor of the tracked M-8 Thunderbolt also developed by GD. I like the GD weapons system as it could provide both direct and indirect fire. Officially I havent seen any announcement of a cancelation of either program. GD states that once they have a contract they can deliver 18 fire units in 18 months.

http://www.strykernews.com/gallery/strykerhowitzer

http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/001258.html
 
tomahawk6 said:
He could be referring to the MGS or the 105mm SP howitzer developed by General Dynamics. Personally I would like to see MGS canceled in favor of the tracked M-8 Thunderbolt also developed by GD. I like the GD weapons system as it could provide both direct and indirect fire. Officially I havent seen any announcement of a cancelation of either program. GD states that once they have a contract they can deliver 18 fire units in 18 months.

http://www.strykernews.com/gallery/strykerhowitzer

http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/001258.html

It looks like people on the second site have some interesting thoughts about Canada and the new CSOR.
http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/003281.html
 
ShawnSmith said:
It looks like people on the second site have some interesting thoughts about Canada and the new CSOR.
http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/003281.html

He said a strange thing about artillery though:

The GDLS 105mm howitzer mounted on the Stryker is unlike anything in existance today. It has an extremely effective muzzle brake that actually has less recoil impulse than the 105mm MGS. The gun is designed to be fired without spades and yes, it can be fired over the side without rolling the vehicle. Max range is 30+ KM (not kidding). The rounds actually go supersonic when fired (fairly rare wehn talking artillery). The military has been offered the first battalion of 18 vehicles just 18 months after someone signs the contract. It fits within a C-130. In fact this vehicle was just last week flown to Fort Sill on a C-130 rolled off, live-fired, and then rolled back on and flown away. I'm not generally impressed by artillery, but this one has me thinking.

That line sure got ME thinking. Any gunners want to comment?
 
Probably the comment relates to a RAP munition as the advertized range of the G7 gun is 30 km.
 
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004armaments/04_vickory_105mm_Indirect_Fire.pdf
http://www.strykernews.com/archives/2004/04/26/howitzer_test_firing.html 

Here's a couple of links talking about the system.  As Tomahawk6 points out the info stipulates a 30 km range (120m CEP) for base-bleed boattail rounds, no rocket assist.  On the other hand the second link refers to an actual trial with a range achieved of 32 km.

... In the meantime, officials from the U.S., U.K., Canadian and South African armies
are considering buying the system to meet long-term transformational goals.

Representatives from the four militaries were present at the demonstration
last week, during which program officials fired 43 practice and training
rounds into the Gulf of Mexico at a maximum range of 32 km.

The howitzer then was flown April 19 to Fort Sill, Okla., on a C-130
aircraft for a five-shot demonstration for Army field artillery leaders.
 
As far as I know, the Stryker MGS is now in limited production.
 
You are correct. Delivery was made last month at Anniston Army depot of 2 MGS. They are the first in a contract for 72 MGS. Hopefully the problems are worked out of it before going to Iraq.

Article concerning the jamming problem with the loader.

http://www.armytimes.com/print.php?f=0-292925-548455.php
 
Talked to a few Yanks in A 'stan who served in Iraq in the Stryker units....

They were saying as of 21 Dec (last time I talked to them) the MGS was not going to be implimented...citing the above mentioned problems.

Mind you these guys were both E7s and their knowledge was a bit outdated.

Makes you kinda wonder though. If the US is willing to drop them, save 70 odd vehicles for testing purposes because they were already on order at the time, what are the real reasons behind it? Capabilities? Price? Effectivness?

Something to chew on.....

Now as for the artillery....that sounds like a feasable option. Mind you 34km is pretty good IMHO, but how effective is this and how realistic is the claim. I know a few mud gunners from Wiskey Batt in Gagetown and here in 2 horse....they RARELY ever used max bag charge, even in Suffield (too hard on the gun I guess). Will this be the same case with this platform combo?

Regards
 
Just some food for thought. I remember in '96 down at Camp Lejeune, a US Marine (This particular guy was rather green and the buttend of his platoons pranks) swearing that US troops were not serving in Bosnia. As we know, their was a division in Bosnia at the time of US troops.

Also, I have met other people in our own line who spoke when they did not know. I am thinking of an RCD WO telling me for sure that the MGS program was cancelled in October. I asked him if he could verify and I got some nonsense about he knows because he is armoured. TI could not find any fact to back this up. IMO, this is how rumors start.
 
I saw on the military channel that the MGS has an 8 round autoloader then that article says that the 2        5 rounds will be replaced by one 10 round autoloader. I'm all confused. Annyways I wish that the gunner will be able to select the type of ammo.
 
I was chatting online last night with a Lt in a stryker brigade who preparing to receive the MGS. The plan is to replace a rifle squad with an MGS. Evidently they are taking a man from the rifle squad and adding him to the crew of the Stryker. A fourth 2 squad platoon is being formed per company. I am not comfortable with these adjustments to the TO&E.
 
Clément Barbeau Vermet said:
I saw on the military channel that the MGS has an 8 round autoloader then that article says that the 2        5 rounds will be replaced by one 10 round autoloader. I'm all confused. Annyways I wish that the gunner will be able to select the type of ammo.

Clement...
While not directly being able to answer your question I did find this site as a result of some chat room discussions last night. It has a nice explanation of modern (post cold War) Revolving Magazine systems in the Merkava Mk. 4
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/merkava/MerkavaMk4.html

Choo
 
From the literature I have read, most of the problems with the MGS centers around the gun and air portability. As stated in a article in 2003 by the Canadian Institute of Strategic Studies:
Still, there are several reasons to doubt the validity of these justifications, as well as the wisdom of entrusting direct-fire support to the MGS. From a technical standpoint, the system is still immature. A report to New Jersey Congressman Jim Saxton has claimed that the recoil of the low-pressure 105-mm main gun was too great to be safely absorbed by the 8-wheeled LAV chassis. This may result in stability problems when firing on uneven terrain. The automatic loader is apparently unable to recognize different kinds of ammunition. Further, the amour package intended to give the vehicle protection against the cheap and ubiquitous rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) was found wanting. As a result, US Army Strykers currently deployed to Iraq must make do with only the vehicle’s base armour plus a makeshift ‘fence’ of mesh armour to defend against an increasingly determined insurgency armed with RPGs.

From an operational standpoint, it is an open question whether the mobility claims made by LGen Hillier justify the faith placed in the MGS. The CLS noted that the vehicle can be flown aboard the C-130 Hercules. In reality, this capability has never been proven; only the infantry carrier version of the Stryker has been flown in the Herc. Not until the weight of the MGS is lowered by at least two tons (at the expense of armour protection?) will it be so deployable. But even assuming this goal can be realized – meaning that detachable armour panels would be transported separately - Canada’s Hercules fleet is not sufficiently serviceable to move the MGS in any reasonable quantity over a tactically or operationally useful distance.

From a strategic lift standpoint, the MGS is no more likely to arrive in theatre any sooner than would a tank. When the Canadian Army deploys overseas it will be required to move an entire formation of vehicles – not just the MGS. Since the most cost-effective way of doing so is by sea, the LAV-based formation will not be transiting the ocean any faster than would a traditional mechanized formation. It makes no difference to a cargo vessel if the vehicles it is carrying weigh 20 tons or 50. The ship is still going to travel at only 15-18 knots.

The Minister’s preference of relying on chartered strategic airlift may not be an issue if rapid deployment is not essential to mission success. But reliance on the open market carries with it certain risks. Due to their popularity with cost-conscious Western governments, Russian and Ukranian airlifters are being chartered with greater frequency. But there is little sign that they will be replaced when their rapidly ageing airframes wear out.  This will surely limit the MGS’s deployment options in future crises deemed relevant to Canada’s security. In such cases the demand for airlift will increase while diminishing capacity will be monopolized by the highest bidder(s). Will Canada be able to secure sufficient airlift in a timely fashion? Unlikely. Experience has shown that Canadian governments are never in a hurry to commit forces to major crises.

As for the CLS’s argument that the Leopard has not demonstrated sufficient relevance, this is not the fault of the tank. When missions requiring heavier armour have come about (ie. Gulf Wars 1 and 2) the Government of Canada has kept the army on the sidelines. In Bosnia and Somalia, Canada did not follow its allies’ example and deploy tanks to shore up shaky ‘peace’ agreements.

As the army adjusts its doctrine to one focussing on operations in complex terrain, doubts about the efficacy of the MGS may arise. Urban operations require vehicles to surmount rubble and man-made obstacles – a task for which tracked vehicles hold a clear advantage. And due to limited fields of view – especially in urban areas - vehicle crews cannot always neutralize threats before they are fired upon. Thus the rationale for having sufficient armour protection to survive a hit and continue the mission. Furthermore, a vehicle cannot always expect to engage targets only from stand-off ranges; it should be able to manoeuvre under fire, close with the adversary and, if necessary, fight through an objective – often without the support of air power or artillery. In view of these requirements, the lightly-armoured MGS runs up the risk compared to the tank.

As for its relevance to peace support operations, the MGS may, as LGen Hiller suggested, be more appropriate a platform when trying to calm or earn the trust of the local population. But if the army needs ‘politically correct’ direct fire support in a non-combat setting, why bother purchasing the MGS at all? Why not rely on the Coyote reconnaissance vehicle, which is already in service?

And while the tank may indeed be too bulky for use in the narrow streets of Kabul, this is hardly the place for the MGS either. The discharge of the low-pressure gun – which, unlike the tank’s main gun, vents the pressure wave to the sides as well as the front - would cause significant collateral damage. If the requirement is for routine patrolling, it is best left to light infantry units and special forces.

One senses that the purchase of the MGS is being made in the context of a subtle yet significant change in strategic and operational focus. By opting for a medium-weight force structure, by not replacing the Leopard tank on a one-for-one basis, and by eviscerating its artillery regiments, the army is quietly dropping all pretensions to being a combat-capable force with sufficient depth to “fight alongside the best against the best” in anything other than very short engagements. Clearly, it is being optimized for muscular peace support operations, whereby the infantryman, the reconnaissance trooper, the signaller, the sensor operator, the engineer and the logistician are the key actors. Keen observers will note that there is no more talk in Ottawa of brigade-sized commitments to international crises, as called for in the 1994 White Paper on Defence.
http://www.ciss.ca/Comment_ArmyMGS.pdf
 
Clément Barbeau Vermet said:
Would it be possible to fit that in the turret of a leo 2, even with some extensive modifications?
Just curious.

Probally (from a engineering standpoint, anything is possible), but is it economical? Autoloaders in tanks have a bad reputation compared to manual loading, as they are prone to failure, and reduces crew situational awareness around the vehicle. A well trained tank crew can fire and reload just as fast as an autoloader equipped tank. Also, autoloaders have a nasty tendancy when hit directly to cook off ammunition, blowing off the turret.
 
Armymatters said:
Probally (from a engineering standpoint, anything is possible), but is it economical? Autoloaders in tanks have a bad reputation compared to manual loading, as they are prone to failure, and reduces crew situational awareness around the vehicle. A well trained tank crew can fire and reload just as fast as an autoloader equipped tank. Also, autoloaders have a nasty tendancy when hit directly to cook off ammunition, blowing off the turret.

Did you check the link? This is an electrically operated revolving magazine which permits the loader to load the gun in less than 2 sec. It has a protective container for every of the 10 rds and a built-in tester.
 
Clément Barbeau Vermet said:
Did you check the link? This is an electrically operated revolving magazine which permits the loader to load the gun in less than 2 sec. It has a protective container for every of the 10 rds and a built-in tester.

I have, but I still have misgivings over an autoloader in a tank. I would prefer to see at least the schematics of the autoloader or at least the autoloader in person and assess it there. I have actually seen the damage from a autoloader cooking off ammunition in a T-72. Ain't that pretty, especially if you are near the tank. A well trained crew in a tank can reload the main gun in 3-5 seconds. However, tactical situation encountered in war should be looked at; It is generally regarded by most tacticians to be unusual for a tank crew to spot more than four targets a minute in most tactical situations. Combat history in the past have proven this.
 
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