Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment

[WPJ]

You want the list of controlled goods? Do an Access to Information Request (FOIA request).

The uniforms are on there.

RedcapCrusader,  Thanks for chiming in on tue discussion.

I find if odd that one would have to file a FOIA request to look up a law.  I have seen where CADPAT as in tue actual pattern is copyrighted.  You would think in the same documents they would state that all material items should mot be allowed for sale in the public sector but they don't.  It just says that you need an agreement with the copyright holder to use the pattern.

There is also section 419 of the criminal code (I think) that said people are not to have possession of controlled items with out permission.  How ever there doesn't seem to be an easy access able list of the actual controlled items
there is also mention that certain controlled items are fine fir use with in Canada however are not allowed to me exported.

There is also reference to surplus sales contracts on the government buy and sell site that say unless it was part of the contract any cadpat clothing should be return as it was not the intention to be sold.  It didn't say it was a controlled item just that it was the policy of that contract not to include any cadpat clothing.  Note the one I read only clothing and it didn't not mention other cadpat items is packs, vests, camp screens etc.

I have also seen reference to a post which said that the controlled part was a internal military police and control and not a section 419 controlled item.

I understand its a hot topic which is very near and deer to some peoples hearts and I have respect for that I am just looking to see there is a public document (not am internal military only) with lists the controlled items, it hard for people to follow the laws when you can read them.

thanks all for the comments and the links its very nice to see all points of view.

 

[RedcapCrusader]

AFAIK, the physical documents (the lists) of what is a controlled good and how it is classified are not available to civilians unless you file an Access to Information Request and even then some and/most of the information may be withheld because it is also controlled information. There is also thousands of pages of controlled goods (which include parts, technology, and information).

All you need to know is if you own/buy/sell/trade/acquire a piece of kit with a CF label and a NSN and it has not been declared surplus it is a federal offence. Depending on the item, you could face hefty punishment.

 

[WPJ]

All you need to know is if you own a piece of kit with a CF label and a NSN and it has not been declared surplus it is a federal offence.

RedcapCrusader, a number of NSN on an item.  I do not think a number of these have a serialization so how could using just a NSN  determine that a item was surpluses correctly or not.  That method seems very grey when it really should be a black and white issue no?

 

[George Wallace]

RedcapCrusader, a number of NSN on an item.  I do not think a number of these have a serialization so how could using just a NSN  determine that a item was surpluses correctly or not.  That method seems very grey when it really should be a black and white issue no?

???

Not all items with a NSN are serialized.  Not all items that are "Controlled Items" are serialized, nor even have NSNs.  If you by chance have an old Lesson Plan for a Wpns class in your possession, that you may have even wrote yourself; that is a "Controled Item". 

As for your question about the acquisition of Arid CADPAT; it has been covered in several topics already:  all CADPAT is to be destroyed when it becomes unserviceable, NOT to be declared surplus and sent off disposal through Crown Assets.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

???

Not all items with a NSN are serialized.  Not all items that are "Controlled Items" are serialized, nor even have NSNs.  If you by chance have an old Lesson Plan for a Wpns class in your possession, that you may have even wrote yourself; that is a "Controled Item". 

As for your question about the acquisition of Arid CADPAT; it has been covered in several topics already:  all CADPAT is to be destroyed when it becomes unserviceable, NOT to be declared surplus and sent off disposal through Crown Assets.

Which begs the question, again.

WHY would someone want it anyway?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Recceguy

There is no need for the name calling or speculations.

I am looking for a link/document which states or lists to items which are controlled.  As this should back up everyone perceptions.

Nowhere did I accuse you, personally, of anything.

Name calling? Whom would 'anybody' be?

As to 'speculation' see my above response.

Why would anybody, outside those soldiers that are issued it, need it?

 

[RedcapCrusader]

???

Not all items with a NSN are serialized.  Not all items that are "Controlled Items" are serialized, nor even have NSNs.  If you by chance have an old Lesson Plan for a Wpns class in your possession, that you may have even wrote yourself; that is a "Controled Item". 

As for your question about the acquisition of Arid CADPAT; it has been covered in several topics already:  all CADPAT is to be destroyed when it becomes unserviceable, NOT to be declared surplus and sent off disposal through Crown Assets.

Well there ya go, learn something new every day.

 

[WPJ]

Which begs the question, again.

WHY would someone want it anyway?

RecceGuy the question of why for me personally is two reasons first I would like to have a tac-vest in AR as much as many people complained about it I would like to have it solely as a price of history as I'm not a paint baller nor airsofter etc it would be to have a price of history. Aswell it would not be something to wear to the mall.

other things I would like to try and find specifically are mostly 3rd party items HSGI AR water bottle/utility pouch, a few M240/2 Quart canteen pouches and a blowout pouch.  I would use these as water/minor 1st aid/and utility pouches in the van.  Why CADPAT AR and not other colours really is personal preference the AR pattern I feel it very appealing to the eye.

RecceGuy does that help you understand my request a little better.  Is there still an existing issue with having some 3rd party pouches in a colour I have nice to the eye.  For the price of history well that's why however I understand that part to be next to impossible.

Thanks.

 

[Loachman]

Why would anybody, outside those soldiers that are issued it, need it?

Why would anybody need an AR15?

Nobody, in a free society, should have to justify why they want something.

Some people collect things as a hobby - stamps, butterflies, hubcaps, beer labels, and military clothing and equipment.

Not everybody will understand everybody else's hobbies and interests. I cannot understand why anybody would want golf clubs, or ice skates, or a bunch of other things. I can accept that they do, however.

And, curiously, I have yet to see any adequate explanation for this need to control CADPAT clothing and other equipment. I wonder if anybody has actually been charged for this heinous crime,  what the verdict(s) and sentence(s) was/were, and whether or not anybody appealed and how that went.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Why would anybody need an AR15?

Nobody, in a free society, should have to justify why they want something.

Some people collect things as a hobby - stamps, butterflies, hubcaps, beer labels, and military clothing and equipment.

Not everybody will understand everybody else's hobbies and interests. I cannot understand why anybody would want golf clubs, or ice skates, or a bunch of other things. I can accept that they do, however.

And, curiously, I have yet to see any adequate explanation for this need to control CADPAT clothing and other equipment. I wonder if anybody has actually been charged for this heinous crime,  what the verdict(s) and sentence(s) was/were, and whether or not anybody appealed and how that went.

Whether you've received, in your mind, an adequate explanation or not is irrelevant. CADPAT AR is a controlled item. Full stop.

If someone wants a similar looking item, they can fill their boots, there's plenty of knockoff stuff out there. Start with http://www.cpgear.com/

I really could care less also about anyone else's hobby, so long as they are not breaking the law or using something they are not authorized to have.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

RecceGuy the question of why for me personally is two reasons first I would like to have a tac-vest in AR as much as many people complained about it I would like to have it solely as a price of history as I'm not a paint baller nor airsofter etc it would be to have a price of history. Aswell it would not be something to wear to the mall.

other things I would like to try and find specifically are mostly 3rd party items HSGI AR water bottle/utility pouch, a few M240/2 Quart canteen pouches and a blowout pouch.  I would use these as water/minor 1st aid/and utility pouches in the van.  Why CADPAT AR and not other colours really is personal preference the AR pattern I feel it very appealing to the eye.

RecceGuy does that help you understand my request a little better.  Is there still an existing issue with having some 3rd party pouches in a colour I have nice to the eye.  For the price of history well that's why however I understand that part to be next to impossible.

Thanks.

There is tons of knock off stuff out there. You don't need to circumvent the law to please your eye.

 

[WPJ]

Whether you've received, in your mind, an adequate explanation or not is irrelevant. CADPAT AR is a controlled item. Full stop.

RecceGuy

Thanks for bringing this to the table again as I have said earlier on I have heard this statement before controlled item however personally I have not been able to to find a public document which states the controlled items and they as in CADPAT say pants, shirts, jackets are listed on it.  Do you have reference to such document which can be publicly viewable if so please share and then this concern becomes a full stop for everyone.  I have heard many times that it is a internal CF policy to shred all unserviceable CADPAT uniforms which I don't think so far anyone has tried to deny, however today no one has been able to produce the Canadian law which specially states CADPAT or the NSN numbers of said items are on a controlled item list.  I have read many times that a lot of research and science into CADPAT and IR reduction and DND wants to keep the copyright very well protected which I can fully understand but protecting a copyright of a pattern does not necessarily mean that tue Digital patter is a controlled item.

This can be pit to bed very easily by matching up the Canadian criminal code section 419 (if I remember correctly) on exportation and possession of controlled items if there is a public list of CADPAT items on that list.  How does one expect the average Canadian to comply with a law if they can't see what items the law covers?  I guess to put it in different words its like having a speed limit on a road where the speed limit signs are blank.  And only Tue officer giving you the ticket know the speed limit.  Overly simplified but I think it gets to the point


I'll keep looking for a list as the whole topic is very interesting even leaving all of the exact items off of the list.  Its kind of like people saying that MARPAT has no references to CADPAT yet the Marines obtained a use rifts license from DND to use the reference pattern with the stipulation that they change the colours yet there are people who claim to be on the team who invented MARPAT and they never used any reference to CADPAT but when someone else analyzes the pattern it is an exact duplicate.

 

[WPJ]

Controlled Items under the Defense Production Act I may have found the list of controlled goods as long as what I have found is correct.  Once I get to a full keyboard ill post the links and the reference materials for all so that we can all see them.  If I have not found the correct information am sure as a collective we will be able to in the near future.

I have been able to read through some mot all of it and it is a very interesting read to see what is covered under the military controlled items schedules.

More to come shortly.

 

[garb811]

Stop being hung up on whether the item is Controlled or not.  CAF policy is CADPAT must be reduced to scrap prior to disposal.  Because of this, it doesn't matter "what you think or wish" you should be able to own, there is no LEGAL means for it to enter the civilian market intact.  This would be true of ANY item owned by DND/CAF, controlled item or not, even something innocuous as an office chair or a screwdriver.  If the policy stated office chairs and screw drivers were to be reduced to scrap prior to disposal, you would never be able to legally buy an intact surplus CAF office chair or screw driver.

Read Section 208(c) of the National Defence Act.

Seriously, get over it.  We go and seize CADPAT items all.the.time.  It is not legal for you to have it.  Ever.  If you do have it and we find out about it, you will lose it and be out the money you spent on it without recourse, unless you can track down armyguy201010 on Ebay and get your money back from him.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Controlled Items under the Defense Production Act I may have found the list of controlled goods as long as what I have found is correct.  Once I get to a full keyboard ill post the links and the reference materials for all so that we can all see them.  If I have not found the correct information am sure as a collective we will be able to in the near future.

I have been able to read through some mot all of it and it is a very interesting read to see what is covered under the military controlled items schedules.

More to come shortly.

We have all done the Controlled Technology Access and Transfer (CTAT) and have seen what is and what isn't controlled....but fill your boots....

 

[WPJ]

RecceGuy

Thanks for bringing this to the table again as I have said earlier on I have heard this statement before controlled item however personally I have not been able to to find a public document which states the controlled items and they as in CADPAT say pants, shirts, jackets are listed on it.  Do you have reference to such document which can be publicly viewable if so please share and then this concern becomes a full stop for everyone.  I have heard many times that it is a internal CF policy to shred all unserviceable CADPAT uniforms which I don't think so far anyone has tried to deny, however today no one has been able to produce the Canadian law which specially states CADPAT or the NSN numbers of said items are on a controlled item list.  I have read many times that a lot of research and science into CADPAT and IR reduction and DND wants to keep the copyright very well protected which I can fully understand but protecting a copyright of a pattern does not necessarily mean that tue Digital patter is a controlled item.

This can be pit to bed very easily by matching up the Canadian criminal code section 419 (if I remember correctly) on exportation and possession of controlled items if there is a public list of CADPAT items on that list.  How does one expect the average Canadian to comply with a law if they can't see what items the law covers?  I guess to put it in different words its like having a speed limit on a road where the speed limit signs are blank.  And only Tue officer giving you the ticket know the speed limit.  Overly simplified but I think it gets to the point


I'll keep looking for a list as the whole topic is very interesting even leaving all of the exact items off of the list.  Its kind of like people saying that MARPAT has no references to CADPAT yet the Marines obtained a use rifts license from DND to use the reference pattern with the stipulation that they change the colours yet there are people who claim to be on the team who invented MARPAT and they never used any reference to CADPAT but when someone else analyzes the pattern it is an exact duplicate.

Apologies go out to all as I have miss quoted section 419 of the criminal code.  I was referring to http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-2001-32/FullText.html or the Controlled Goods Regulations of the Defense Production Act (SOR/2001-32)


Sorry again for the confusion of the two.

 

[RedcapCrusader]

You want an AR Tac Vest? Visit and donate to your local military museum where you can gaze upon it's glory all you want ( :boke: )

Reason for controlling CADPAT uniforms? How about the fact that I don't have a complete serviceable uniform. In fact, I'm borrowing from a friend that is on civilian overseas employment because "there's a shortage and the new stuff is rolling out now..."

 

[WPJ]

OK here is what I have found so far in the way of links and documents

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-2001-32/FullText.html - Controlled Goods Regulations of the Defense Production Act (SOR/2001-32)

https://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pol/doc-eng.aspx?id=12063&section=text - Controlled Goods Directive, Treasury Board

http://www.international.gc.ca/controls-controles/military-militaires/index.aspx?lang=eng - Military and Strategic Goods and Technology

http://www.international.gc.ca/controls-controles/about-a_propos/expor/guide-2011.aspx?lang=eng - Groups 1 & 2 from Military and Strategic Goods and Technology

http://www.international.gc.ca/controls-controles/about-a_propos/expor/guide-2011-2.aspx?lang=eng - Groups 3 - 7 from Military and Strategic Goods and Technology

Thanks to NFLD Sapper for a reference to CTAT the above may not be all of the list, NFLD Sapped for you have a more detailed link?

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/35975.0 - Also I found a great thread which ArmyVern discusses the issue at length I'm sure to read through it all over the next while but there is a number of very interesting posts.

I'll try and see if I can pull up anything about the CTAT and CADPAT which is in the public domain.

 

[WPJ]

You want an AR Tac Vest? Visit and donate to your local military museum where you can gaze upon it's glory all you want ( :boke: )

Reason for controlling CADPAT uniforms? How about the fact that I don't have a complete serviceable uniform. In fact, I'm borrowing from a friend that is on civilian overseas employment because "there's a shortage and the new stuff is rolling out now..."

RedcapCrusader

Maybe I should restate my original request.  This may ease everyone thoughts.  I am not necessarily requesting CF issue items but rather 3rd party items let me change my original post slightly here....

Hey all, I have been looking around a while and I wanted to see if anyone knows were to get some CADPAT AR kit namely the items below.

Looking for the tac vest in AR similar to the aftermarket TW vest from parklands or world famous, arid rain suit similar to the after market Cordura D210 breathable raid gear set which I can only find in TW and as an imported product. Any CADPAT AR molle pouches specifically a few of these HSGI Nalgene Bottle Pouch, HSGI M249/2qt. Canteen Pouch, HSGI Blowout kit all of these in AR

Additionally has anyone seen any backpacks, daypacks in AR beside ordering a custom version of CPGears ruck 64 but having them use AR instead of TW which there standard pack comes in.

Lastly does anyone know where to get some mesh CADPAT AR material to make a sun cover or tarp similar TW personal camouflage protection screen.

Pm me for details

Baring not able to find some of this I will start to look for desert marpat and AOR1 which is very similar.

Note I never tried to imply that I was trying to steel someone's kit but rather where I could get these items via surplus namely the hsgi pouches as they do not make them in cadpat anymore, hence the Surplus request.  I personally don't know why any sane person would play dress up in a full uniform with proper patches, rank etch, that's just nonsense and would get you in trouble (yet I see YouTube full of these jtf2 look a like out there pretending for Airsoft) but maybe that's where many of you thought I was looking for.  I hope I have cleared the air a bit by clarifying my intentions.

Thanks.

 

[JesseWZ]

WPJ,

Collectively, we get rather suspicious around these parts whenever someone attempts to locate actual CADPAT (AR, TW, etc.) equipment. The sheer number of walts, posers, wannabes and fraudsters out there has made that so. At best, walts use it to elicit sympathy at a bar; at worst, it is used to defraud someone of goods, services, and cash. (Big Bad John anyone?) The membership here gets quite rightfully protective of the profession of arms and does not suffer those who wish to pretend but never participate. My detachment has dealt with several files regarding posers, seized kit, etc.

The moral of the story is this, you will not get an actual CADPAT AR tac-vest or any other piece of CADPAT clothing or equipment. The continued request for a list of what you can and can't have, for some sends the warning bells sounding just a little louder. Hindsight being 20/20 and all,  you were not being accused of anything, but a well articulated post with your reasons for wanting one would go a looooooong way to knocking the alarm bells down a notch or two. The answer would still be a resounding NO! You can't have any. but hey, welcome to the army.

JesseWZ
Army.ca Mentor