Why Socialism can never die

[a_majoor]

Link to a long article which attempts to explain why after the disasters of the 20th century there are STILL true believers in socialism, and why it is seemingly so easy to whip up the crowd to follow them. (This might also go some way to explaining the belief systems of people like the protesters in Winnipeg and elsewhere). Long read but worthwhile:

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=050506I

excerpt

Sorel's response to Renan's comment is not to say, "Renan is wrong; there is a socialist solution, and one day we will find it." Instead, he focuses on the fact that socialists gain their strength precisely from their refusal to recognize that no socialist solution exists. "No failure proves anything against Socialism since the latter has become a work of preparation (for revolution); if they are checked, it merely proves that their apprenticeship has been insufficient; they must set to work again with more courage, persistence, and confidence than before...." But what is the point for Sorel of this refusal to accept the repeated historical failure of socialism? Here again, Sorel refuses to embrace the orthodox position of socialist optimism; he does not say, "Try, try, try again, for one day socialism will succeed." Instead, he argues that it is only by refusing to accept the failure of socialism that one can become a "true revolutionary." Indeed, for Sorel, the whole point of the myth of the socialist revolution is not that the human societies will be transformed in the distant future, but that the individuals who dedicate their lives to this myth will be transformed into comrades and revolutionaries in the present. In short, revolution is not a means to achieve socialism; rather, the myth of socialism is a useful illusion that turns ordinary men into comrades and revolutionaries united in a common struggle -- a band of brothers, so to speak..
                                                                                                *                        *                          *
It may well be that socialism isn't dead because socialism cannot die. As Sorel argued, the revolutionary myth may, like religion, continue to thrive in "the profounder regions of our mental life," in those realms unreachable by mere reason and argument, where even a hundred proofs of failure are insufficient to wean us from those primordial illusions that we so badly wish to be true. Who doesn't want to see the wicked and the arrogant put in their place? Who among the downtrodden and the dispossessed can fail to be stirred by the promise of a world in which all men are equal, and each has what he needs?

 

[paracowboy]

Socialism as espoused by our modern "revolutionaries", Communism as outlined by Herrs Marx und Engels, Moore's Utopianism, are trylu wondrous concepts, and I fervently wish to see them come true. But they can't. They are a fallacy. The problem is their inherent flaw: they ignore Human Nature.

Perhaps one day, the species will evolve enough, as a society, to be able to accept them, and it would be a glorious day. True Equality, Liberty, and a total absence of poverty, with it's attendant problems of crime, hunger, disease, and war.

But, I'll not hold my breath. I need it to continue to fight in the present to make the world a better place.

 

[Brad Sallows]

A frictionless universe always made my physics problems easier, but it was not difficult to distinguish between fantasy and reality.  It would be amusing to watch these people keep trying to run up a slope of infinitely increasing grade and height if they didn't cause so much misery for others.

 

[CougarKing]

Socialism as espoused by our modern "revolutionaries", Communism as outlined by Herrs Marx und Engels, Moore's Utopianism, are trylu wondrous concepts, and I fervently wish to see them come true. But they can't. They are a fallacy. The problem is their inherent flaw: they ignore Human Nature.

Perhaps one day, the species will evolve enough, as a society, to be able to accept them, and it would be a glorious day. True Equality, Liberty, and a total absence of poverty, with it's attendant problems of crime, hunger, disease, and war.

But, I'll not hold my breath. I need it to continue to fight in the present to make the world a better place.

Though, your last line sounds a little corny, the rest of it sounds well said, paracowboy. Seriously.

 

[Zarathustra]

Very good article.

I love to go argue about economics in left wing forums. Over the years I had a countless number of tactical victories, and yet I never managed to obtain any kind of strategic result. They just keep coming ! It's like every new socialist brings back to life all your defeated opponents. At some point you have to just laugh over it.

It may well be that socialism isn't dead because socialism cannot die. As Sorel argued, the revolutionary myth may, like religion, continue to thrive in "the profounder regions of our mental life," in those realms unreachable by mere reason and argument, where even a hundred proofs of failure are insufficient to wean us from those primordial illusions that we so badly wish to be true. Who doesn't want to see the wicked and the arrogant put in their place? Who among the downtrodden and the dispossessed can fail to be stirred by the promise of a world in which all men are equal, and each has what he needs?

Very true I think. From my experience, you can defeat every rational arguments of a socialist, his faith is not wavering. He's still a believer.


I'll post this article in my favorite socialist forum and observe the reaction.

 

[GunfighterSB]

Zarathustra,

Can you post the URL where you are placing this post? I too want to see the frenzy.

A_majoor,

That was a very informative link. The article was followed by more spirited discussion. (I especially liked the Capitalist Myth of a Self Made Man - arguing that it is not a myth but a practical accomplishment with a lot of credible examples).

Perhaps the next link from the Mr. Harris will explain not only the socialists but the religious zeal of the protesters that accompany them. (It may explain the thread of "Protestor's Response to Exercise Charging Bison".

http://www.policyreview.org/aug02/harris.html

Again, thank you for the treasured find.

 

[paracowboy]

Though, your last line sounds a little corny,

sorry. I'll try to word my convictions in such a manner that they won't be construed in that way again.

the rest of it sounds well said, paracowboy. Seriously.

thanks ever so much. I feel better now.

 

[Kat Stevens]

:rofl:

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Over the years I had a countless number of tactical victories

Ah, the joy of whack-a-mole.

 

[Zarathustra]

Zarathustra,

Can you post the URL where you are placing this post? I too want to see the frenzy.

Actually no frenzy so far, only one person replied. (It's not a very high volume forum.)

http://www.pourunquebecsolidaire.org/index.php?forum

The forum is in french. My name there is Francois Boudreau. I don't know if you follow Quebec's politics, but last fall a group of public figures published a "Lucid manifesto", asking for reforms. A "Solidarity manifesto" was published in response to it. This forum in the solidarity forum.

After coming here and reading the article above, I realized I needed to change my tactics. I'm just going to ask questions, in a Socratic way. It's probably better if they discovers the errors by themselves, like I did when I was younger. I'll just try to guide them toward that.

You really have to bring the moles to your side, otherwise it's useless. And from my experience moles don't switch side after you proved in public that they are idiots. Quite the opposite. So from now on, it will be less firepower and more heart and mind. We'll see how it goes.

 

[exsemjingo]

Death to Marxism.

 

[bdb]

Ignorance is strength.
War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.

Sound familiar?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I'm just wondering if people that are against socialism are against our health care system?  Our system has it's problems but I believe in the fundamental right of all citizens to have access to health care.

 

[paracowboy]

yes. Yes, we are. In fact, if we have our way we will hav seven year-olds working in coal mines again.  :

 

[hoosierdaddy]

yes. Yes, we are. In fact, if we have our way we will hav seven year-olds working in coal mines again.  :

What the heck is that supposed to mean?  Was there a REASON for you to  :? No, I don't think so.

 

[paracowboy]

yes, there was, or I wouldn't have included it. It's used to express certain emotions such as exasperation with a silly question. It's often used in conjunction with a sarcastic comment. These types of answers are usually given in response to a silly question or comment, or one that flies in the face of common sense.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

yes, there was, or I wouldn't have included it. It's used to express certain emotions such as exasperation with a silly question. It's often used in conjunction with a sarcastic comment. These types of answers are usually given in response to a silly question or comment, or one that flies in the face of common sense.

All of which I didn't think my question was.   

Now, what was silly about the question?  What flew in the face of common sense?  There are people who are against socialism and that's fine, but then why be all for our health system?  That's a tad inconsistent, don't you think?  Next time you want to accuse me of asking a silly question or having no common sense please support it with facts.  Thank you.

 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm just wondering if people that are against socialism are against our health care system?  Our system has it's problems but I believe in the fundamental right of all citizens to have access to health care.

If the lieberals in Ontario would give me back the health premium they stole from me and the Feds would give me my share back of the taxes that go to health care, I would opt out of the 'Universal Health System'. I'd take the money and buy into an HMO. Better, more professional and faster service. If you can't afford an HMO, go ahead and stick with the archaic and broken system that leaves you on the waiting list hoping you'll die before they have to spend dollar one to treat you, and doesn't allow you the choice of treatment. There's a reason the communist and socialist are dying off, and part of it is self prescribed in their utopian, err...universal health system.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

If the lieberals in Ontario would give me back the health premium they stole from me and the Feds would give me my share back of the taxes that go to health care, I would opt out of the 'Universal Health System'. I'd take the money and buy into an HMO. Better, more professional and faster service. If you can't afford an HMO, go ahead and stick with the archaic and broken system that leaves you on the waiting list hoping you'll die before they have to spend dollar one to treat you, and doesn't allow you the choice of treatment. There's a reason the communist and socialist are dying off, and part of it is self prescribed in their utopian, err...universal health system.

Ok, I'm going to assume it's fine to be disrespectful and sarcastic...contrary to the rules that I "thought" I read when I joined.  I never said that our system does not have problems; it has many problems.  But it is my belief that citizens have the right to health care and it should be provided when the tax dollars are going towards it. Health care is a RIGHT, not a for profit business.

It's not about "your" tax dollars.  It is a sacrifice for which ALL Canadians should be giving their tax dollars myself and yourself included.  Others do it just as much as you do.  I can't believe on an army forum there seem to be people who are only concerned about themselves.  Sorry, but that's not me. 

As for "utopian", I never mentioned that whatsoever.  There will be no "utopia" on this side of the Lord's return.  Newslfash for you...EVERYONE is dying off!  Not just communists and socialists!  But then again, should I even take you seriously when you say lieberals instead of "liberals"?  :

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Ok, I'm going to assume it's fine to be disrespectful and sarcastic...contrary to the rules that I "thought" I read when I joined.  I never said that our system does not have problems; it has many problems.  But it is my belief that citizens have the right to health care and it should be provided when the tax dollars are going towards it. Health care is a RIGHT, not a for profit business.

It's not about "your" tax dollars.  It is a sacrifice for which ALL Canadians should be giving their tax dollars myself and yourself included.  Others do it just as much as you do.  I can't believe on an army forum there seem to be people who are only concerned about themselves.  Sorry, but that's not me. 

As for "utopian", I never mentioned that whatsoever.  There will be no "utopia" on this side of the Lord's return.  Newslfash for you...EVERYONE is dying off!  Not just communists and socialists!  But then again, should I even take you seriously when you say lieberals instead of "liberals"?  :

Disrespectful and sarcastic to whom? That's my honest feelings and opinions. And it is about my tax dollars when they go to good for nothing louts who won't go and do an honest days work to provide for themselves. Leaving me and the other honest working folk in this country to provide for them. You don't have to mention utopia, I did. It was my response and my perogative. It's my opinion. I'm entitled to it.

PS: If they don't want to be labelled as lieberals, they should stop acting like it.