Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I have long said that you could fund the CAF to 4 percent of GDP, but we would still lag behind in NATO and be much the same where we are.

It's never the money, it's politics. It's procedures. It's the pork-barreling in our defence spending that makes us a paper tiger in NATO.

My only hope in all of this for the CAF and the GoC, whatever the political stripe that may be, is that it will rouse them out of the "Peace Dividend" slumber. The world has been unstable since 1945. We have used geography, proximity, and association as a Defence Policy ever since. ICBMs don't care how close to the U.S. or how far from Russia/China we are.

Don't give us a dime more, but let us spend money on defence like it matters. The fact we follow the same rules for purchasing a fighter aircraft as we do for buying office furniture for a Service Canada office is disgraceful. Don't treat defense procurement as a stimulus package for Canadian Industry. There I said it.

We spend so much money, time, and effort trying to get that money to stay in Canada; be it by awarding contracts to companies with no capability to produce items without first "retooling" and"developing the production lines", or by hamstringing perfectly competent and competitive bidders by forcing the project to be made in St. Margaret de Poutain de Champignon, QC because the ruling government either lost the seat in the election, or won it with promises.

We spend so much money and staff hours jumping through TBS regulations that are great for other departments, but are terrible for defence procurement. Some items you have to sole source, because there are technologies and capabilities no one else makes. By doing the bid process, you get companies clamoring for a project they can't deliver on, but because they tick the bright boxes on the score sheet....

I truly and honestly belief we need to split from PSPC and legislate that its not beholden to TBS, only to the PBO/PCO. The guiding principles of this new Defence Procurement department should be "Off the shelf, from somewhere else" if there isn't an industry in Canada.

BOOTFORGEN has demonstrated how well we do when we are able to actually get what we need, instead of lining the pockets of a Canadian company that got lucky.

That, but with tanks, fighters, ships, weapons systems....

 

[Prairie canuck]

since we're in "should" mode, Why not a couple of the proposed BMT Ellida with the RAS option?

 

[Cloud Cover]

since we're in "should" mode, Why not a couple of the proposed BMT Ellida with the RAS option?

Apparently this design from Serco was at some point pitched to the Canadian government.

https://www.serco.com/media/11742/guardian-mk2-logistics-support-ship.pdf

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

and a huge number of those canals and railways floundered, even before being finished.

Like all business, tons of false starts and casualties.

The Panama Canal had numerous false starts and a 400 year history of numerous failed schemes before the Americans finally succeeded.

Ship Railway enters the chat.

Chignecto Marine Transport Railway - Wikipedia

The most Canadian engineering project ever. Spending a foolish amount of money on something that was neither practical or required.

 

[Weinie]

Like all business, tons of false starts and casualties.

The Panama Canal had numerous false starts and a 400 year history of numerous failed schemes before the Americans finally succeeded.



The most Canadian engineering project ever. Spending a foolish amount of money on something that was neither practical or required.

Made an excellent hunting trail(ducks/partridge/deer) though.

 

[Rainbow1910]

why not? Seaspan could easily contract the buoy tenders to a smaller yard, take a small profit from each and build two more JSS. The smaller coast guard vessels don't require any fancy cranes and large construction spaces

As was mentioned elsewhere, these "buoy tenders" aren't small nor especially easy to construct vessels. It's a 100m long, 9,000t and Polar Class 4 ice strengthened vessel with an order of potentially up to SIXTEEN vessels in total. That isn't something that would be or really could be contracted to a smaller yard, given this is a bread and butter program that will be keeping Seaspan busy for quite a few years.

The RCN very well could decide to contract another 1-2 JSS once the order book for Seaspan dries up, similar to what the German's did with the Berlin class. There was a third ship procured around a decade after the first two that incorporated many design improvements.

You be better off leasing the Wave Class tankers, laying up a couple of the CFP's and provide the USN with tanker support till the RN needs them back or the enough River Class are commissioned.

I've seen folks elsewhere put forward the idea of Canada founding its own Royal Fleet Auxiliary, with the idea of getting the pair of Wave class vessels for fairly cheap and using them to help found the force. You could also try to buy Asterix to found the force alternatively but Davie is going to charge out the nose for such a purchase. This would give the RCN an auxiliary force of 2 JSS and 2 Wave, giving a lot more variety to assisting NATO/regional allies in various operations alongside providing additional redundancy to our own operations. Once the Wave class age out, contract a replacement pair of vessels largely off the shelf from abroad to replace them and keep on trucking.

Ideally, a hypothetical RCFA would be drawing off manpower pools that wouldn't be entirely interested in joining the Navy proper as it is drawn from industry and are classified as civilian employees under DND.

 

[DBNSG]

As was mentioned elsewhere, these "buoy tenders" aren't small nor especially easy to construct vessels. It's a 100m long, 9,000t and Polar Class 4 ice strengthened vessel with an order of potentially up to SIXTEEN vessels in total. That isn't something that would be or really could be contracted to a smaller yard, given this is a bread and butter program that will be keeping Seaspan busy for quite a few years.

The RCN very well could decide to contract another 1-2 JSS once the order book for Seaspan dries up, similar to what the German's did with the Berlin class. There was a third ship procured around a decade after the first two that incorporated many design improvements.


I've seen folks elsewhere put forward the idea of Canada founding its own Royal Fleet Auxiliary, with the idea of getting the pair of Wave class vessels for fairly cheap and using them to help found the force. You could also try to buy Asterix to found the force alternatively but Davie is going to charge out the nose for such a purchase. This would give the RCN an auxiliary force of 2 JSS and 2 Wave, giving a lot more variety to assisting NATO/regional allies in various operations alongside providing additional redundancy to our own operations. Once the Wave class age out, contract a replacement pair of vessels largely off the shelf from abroad to replace them and keep on trucking.

Ideally, a hypothetical RCFA would be drawing off manpower pools that wouldn't be entirely interested in joining the Navy proper as it is drawn from industry and are classified as civilian employees under DND.

Further to that Idea I would add a fifth Ice Strengthened Baltic class Ferry to the Newfoundland Run as a hot Idle spare that regularly transits the Atlantic right to Riga. Do those exercises at the End of the Argentia Newfoundland Runs in the Fall. Heck while I am at it the Feds should standardize the Atlantic Ferries between Digby-Saint John, the Two Pictou- PEI Ships and the Mag Island Ferry. The Digby Ferry could easily carry the equivalent of an entire Armoured Recce Squadron and kit. Anywhere.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The most Canadian engineering project ever. Spending a foolish amount of money on something that was neither practical or required.

Like Ottawa?

 

[GR66]

The RCN very well could decide to contract another 1-2 JSS once the order book for Seaspan dries up, similar to what the German's did with the Berlin class. There was a third ship procured around a decade after the first two that incorporated many design improvements.

You mean like not treating the NSS as a one off to replace our rusted out fleets and actually having a perpetual build of new ships to constantly renew the fleet before they self divest???

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Made an excellent hunting trail(ducks/partridge/deer) though.

It's kind of funny because they probably could have built a half-decent transloading rail line to take supplies from one side to the other, which at the time, would have been value added.

The Panama Railway did this very thing for years prior to the Panama Canal being finished.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Like all business, tons of false starts and casualties.

The Panama Canal had numerous false starts and a 400 year history of numerous failed schemes before the Americans finally succeeded.



The most Canadian engineering project ever. Spending a foolish amount of money on something that was neither practical or required.

There is still talk of a Nicaraguan canal and even another canal to challenge the Suez canal.

The Biggest dumb idea was to dam the Med and drain it....

 

[Cloud Cover]

Further to that Idea I would add a fifth Ice Strengthened Baltic class Ferry to the Newfoundland Run as a hot Idle spare that regularly transits the Atlantic right to Riga. Do those exercises at the End of the Argentia Newfoundland Runs in the Fall. Heck while I am at it the Feds should standardize the Atlantic Ferries between Digby-Saint John, the Two Pictou- PEI Ships and the Mag Island Ferry. The Digby Ferry could easily carry the equivalent of an entire Armoured Recce Squadron and kit. Anywhere.

This is a really decent idea. The downside is the cost of DND being forced to subsidize the cost of building and likely operating/maintaining the ships.

 

[lenaitch]

The Biggest dumb idea was to dam the Med and drain it....

Right up there with the Grand Canal . . .

Great Recycling and Northern Development Canal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[KevinB]

This is a really decent idea. The downside is the cost of DND being forced to subsidize the cost of building and likely operating/maintaining the ships.

Hey getting you folks to 2% isn’t going to happen by itself…

 

[Cloud Cover]

Right up there with the Grand Canal . . .

Great Recycling and Northern Development Canal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Oh no, don’t let Trump hear about this.

 

[DBNSG]

This is a really decent idea. The downside is the cost of DND being forced to subsidize the cost of building and likely operating/maintaining the ships.

The Feds have constitutional responsibilities to pay the costs of the Ferries anyway. A slight increase in Ticket prices would cover the operating. The Digby Ferry is mostly tourists and Fish product on the way to Boston. Have you seen the price of LAWBSTAAH!
My Idea serves a Civilian need for most of the Time and let me tell you there is huge anxiety in Newfoundland when one of the Ferries bonks. Its Food trucks and tourists while the rest of the Economy waits.

 

[MilEME09]

Not at 8,000DWT, these are not small ships

Multi-Purpose Vessels - Seaspan

www.seaspan.com

Davie's CANFLO might be an idea

https://twitter.com/x/status/1859705952435646602

 

[Prairie canuck]

Apparently this design from Serco was at some point pitched to the Canadian government.

https://www.serco.com/media/11742/guardian-mk2-logistics-support-ship.pdf

That's quite the design. Covers a lot of "potential needs" in one package! 2 or 3 should do it. 30m longer than Protecteur so it's a very big vessel.

 

[ytz]

That's quite the design. Covers a lot of "potential needs" in one package! 2 or 3 should do it.

I don't understand the focus on amphibious forces. We just don't have those land force protection needs. We just need old fashioned transport for getting heavy forces to Europe or around the Pacific. That's more suited to an auxiliary role with ferries.

I think some kind of flat top with naval air power is more relevant to Canada. Something like the old HMS Ocean for the RN.

 

[Cloud Cover]

While UK government and the RN keep saying they will retain both QE carriers, they probably wouldn’t refuse a decent cash offer for one of the two.

“I don't understand the focus on amphibious forces. We just don't have those land force protection needs. We just need old fashioned transport for getting heavy forces to Europe or around the Pacific. That's more suited to an auxiliary role with ferries.”

Presumably the usable port and ferry facilities in the Baltic and much of Northern Europe will be destroyed.

 

[Prairie canuck]

I don't understand the focus on amphibious forces. We just don't have those land force protection needs. We just need old fashioned transport for getting heavy forces to Europe or around the Pacific. That's more suited to an auxiliary role with ferries.

I think some kind of flat top with naval air power is more relevant to Canada. Something like the old HMS Ocean for the RN.

The Serco offering is logistics, AOR, and ferry services primarily.