CAN-USA Tariff Strife (split from various pol threads)

[MilEME09]

Are any of them Republicans? Politically we need to force a divide within his own party on this, break the consensus.

I believe it's all dems unfortunately for now

Stanton Leads 40+ House Democrats in Letter Calling on Trump to Immediately Rescind Tariffs on Mexico and Canada

U.S. Representative Greg Stanton today led 42 of his House Democratic colleagues in a letter to President Donald Trump, Secretary of State Marco Rubio, the acting Secretary of Commerce and Office of the U.S. Trade Representative calling on the Trump Administration to immediately rescind the...

stanton.house.gov

 

[Kirkhill]

My concern with this is that would be an exceptionally grave provocation that would credibly threaten their national interests in a way that they wouldn’t hear us out on. It’s fun to think of shutting down all energy exports and cutting off electricity on Super Bowl Sunday, or making gas more expensive for nascar races and such.

But It wouldn’t play like that. Republicans would phrase it as a ‘blockade’, would emphasize losing critical and safety-sensitive services. We don’t want them to see that as a national security vulnerability and to respond accordingly. We don’t want to put wind in the sails of actually using force. It would also have a massive cost to Canadians and would exacerbate existing divides we have. Albertans don’t want a government cheque, they want a paycheque that says ‘Cenovus’ on it. And that’s totally reasonable.

I’m all for hurting them back, but in ways that don’t provide a single evening news focal point where they can play the victim of a disproportionate ‘attack’. Add cost, pressure and friction to their economy in ways and places that will hurt Trump’s image and will hurt him politically. Coordinate with allied trading blocs on this. Amplify to Americans the cost of the “Trump tax”. Take his rhetoric about cost of living and force it back down his throat.

As I think back to every bullshit neighbour dispute file I’ve attended, at the end of all this once it simmers down we’re still gonna be neighbours. We still want the door open to barrier free interconnected trade. That’s still best for Canadians and for Americans. Start by closing the doors we can most easily reopen.

The best solution would be to make Windsor a more attractive location for manufacturing vehicles than Detroit. And I use the term vehicles with care. Don't compete for cars and trucks. Compete for heavy vehicles and specialty vehicles. For example.

Draw market share away from the US by exporting Oil and Gas and driving the international price down.

Make Canada a more attractive place for investment in our resources. We have the same land area with more resources and only 10% of the people with their hands out wanting their "mail".

Trump has to support 400 million people. Trudeau and Poilievre only have to support 40 million. We only need 10% of the tax revenue to support the same level of payments to individuals.

 

[Remius]

Careful, you're getting close to calling people disloyal again, solely based on their opinion.

I think we can agree that promoting the idea of being annexed by the US is not by definition being loyal to one’s country.

And yours.

Sounds like you're writing trudeau's speeches, "They're all misogynist, racist, science hating, low intelligent people. Now we can add traitor to their faults."

Now you are putting words that were not said.

It's not that they are defending Trump. It's simply that they are taking a world view of things and analyzing all the angles. Rather than standing on on the border in their plaid tuxedo and waving their hockey stick. Yelling 'I am Canadian.' Instead of 'Wolverines'

Except they aren’t. The only angle is Eff Trudeau and whataboutisms including the naive position that this is just about migrants and fentanyl . I have yet to see anything negative about Trump’s action from that side. At all.

Tell me, do you agree with PP’s stance on this? Or Doug Ford? Because they are saying the same thing the Feds are. In fact they seem to want to go further with dollar for dollar retaliatory tariffs. On side with that or not?

 

[ModlrMike]

I was thinking that another "law of intended consequences" is that this may push many in the rest of the world to stop buying US products primarily as a political statement. With Trump making noise about tariffs being applied to the EU, and more specifically Denmark, global public opinion may shift in a direction that is ultimately damaging to the US economy. As well, this has the potential to do direct damage to the US economy, shades of the Smoot–Hawley Tariff Act of 1930, which was intended to protect the economy, but ended up actually extending the effect of the Great Depression.

 

[Kirkhill]

I have a question
Lots of people saying fuck Trump, let's piss him off with our own tariffs. Ignore his wishes to stop fentanyl and terrorists going south from here. We can afford to live a little tighter and cheaper to make our point.
Really? How about all those people at rock bottom, living in trudeauvilles already? How about those who are just on the edge, giving up meals to buy gas for their 2-3 jobs, do they now move to the trudeauvilles? Those sites are about to suffer a big increase in residents.
It's nice to sit warm and dry in our homes, with our great job or retirement keeping us that way. A huge amount of Canadians don't have these advantages. And here is trudeau changing his emergency funding plan from 'pandemic' to 'tariff war' and is about to throw millions and millions back into the ether, where it will disappear without helping Canadians again. I'll bet we have the same companies and individuals bilking the system again. There was no repercussions for cheating last time, how many millions will go missing again.

Trudeau's plan and implementation will go the same ham fisted, irresponsible, bank breaking way his pandemic action did. All he did was dust the last solution off and change the cover page.

This is not the way out of this. Our freeloader status has been called out and our only response is to stick out our tongue and blow raspberries at America.

Trudeau loves this chaos. He's not going to fix it. Him, Carney, et al need this crisis to grow so they can keep scaring Canadians and terrorizing them to stay in line and depend on liberal solutions.

Where is the bipartisan commission? Or are we going to let the liberals drive the train without input from the opposition. Or be content to let them and the orange liberals drive it over a cliff?

Who cares how much hardship we can bring to the Americans? How it will affect them? Worry about Canadians. This is not a war. This is not spiteful. Trump is doing what he thinks best for his country and citizens, even if we think it's personal. It's a negotiation. Trump has thrown his first card, now we need to see how low he will go and to find out where our common ground is so we can grow that.

Trudeau is as useless, in this, as tits on a bull.

Our economic situation is a result of bad decisions predicated on a stable environment. We left ourselves no room for manoeuvre and wasted too much energy preening and pretending that we were valued.

Our convention hall is now surplus to requirement.

 

[Blackadder1916]

if Glenora were distilled on Islay it would be called Scotch, or so I have heard

But if Glenora was distilled on Islay, it would take on some of the typical characteristics of Islay whisky. They would use local water and probably like most of the Islay distillers would likely "peat" their malt. That would significantly change the taste. And yes, the differences in water, peat, grain, still and climate translate to differences in taste.

This past Robbie Burns Day, I took advantage of a "Burns Day Special" at a local liquor store and bought two Islays,
a Bowmore 12 Y.O.

and a Laphroaig Quarter Cask .

Differences between both, even though both distilleries are now owned by the same Scottish distiller company which is now a subsidiary of
Suntory Global Spirits (that also owns Jim Beam, et al), an American corporation which is a subsidiary of the Japanese beverage company Suntory. And while a discussion of whisky may seem to be straying from a thread about tariffs (maybe we should have a whisky thread), it is a fair example of globalization of ownership.

 

[QV]

Your posting history supports everything I claimed. I stand by my opinion of your concern for Canada. It isn’t genuine.

Your opinion is worth as much as mine or anyone else’s out there. Enjoy the show.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Our economic situation is a result of bad decisions predicated on a stable environment. We left ourselves no room for manoeuvre and wasted too much energy preening and pretending that we were valued.

Our convention hall is now surplus to requirement.

But, there is opportunity here.

Canada will have to navigate through the darkness, but if we're smart we can come out the other side stronger and more independent than we are now.

 

[Remius]

Our economic situation is a result of bad decisions predicated on a stable environment. We left ourselves no room for manoeuvre and wasted too much energy preening and pretending that we were valued.

Our convention hall is now surplus to requirement.

Absolutely which is why it is time to get away from the sole source that is the US. They are not reliable or stable in that regard, treaties be damned.

 

[IKnowNothing]

If we were to make the assumption that President Trumps aim and intent of tariffs is territorial acquisition, So What?
What actions does Canada take that are fully within our control? How are they different than if President Trumps aim and intent is the US economy?

Under both of those "why" scenarios the broadstrokes outlook is the same- longterm we need to develop a more diverse and robust economy, with more self reliance and more east- west international trade.

There's more complexity under the 3rd option- coersion to satisfy non annexation geopolitical goals. In that scenario we still need to make the shift so that we will not be so exposed in the future, but also make a concerted effort to see if there is a way to satisfy those goals without completely sacfricing our sovereignty

 

[Kirkhill]

Do you place any responsibility for what’s about to happen on Trump for violating the existing trade treaty and imposing 25% tariffs on most of our economic sectors? Or are you giving him a freebie on his tariffs but condemning ours in response?

I'll tackle this one.

I put the total responsibility on the Trump faction. Both inside and outside the US. Trump is their salesman.

Is it a good plan? Hard to say. From here it looks painful. But I think we have to accept that there is a plan and Trump and his people are working the plan.

A man, a plan, a canal. Panama!

...

I like the Globe/Tombe plan I mentioned in the editorial I attached above.

Out compete the bugger.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Absolutely nobody here is saying that. Maybe you’re reading that elsewhere but you certainly aren’t on army.ca.



I accept that you’re concerned about economic impacts and job losses. You live in a part of Ontario heavily involved in the auto sector, where a whole ton of jobs are about to be lost because of Trump’s tariffs.

Do you place any responsibility for what’s about to happen on Trump for violating the existing trade treaty and imposing 25% tariffs on most of our economic sectors? Or are you giving him a freebie on his tariffs but condemning ours in response?

Feel free to go through my posts and find where I said I agree with his use of tariffs.

I am on the fence, in the middle, not overly concerned of the tariffs on either side being the end game. I can think beyond the here and now and extreme rhetoric from both sides. I can see the tariff issue as a means to drive both sides into a negotiated settlement. Rather than hang around and not be able to see beyond the tariff starting blocks. Which trudeau just did. Retaliating in the here and now instead of looking a few steps further down the process.

I think both sides are wrong in the use of tariffs, but I think, maybe, Trump is using this as a cudgel. He knows the broken promises, hedging and dishonest discussions of dealing with trudeau and his jellyfish. This might well have been designed to make people act. However, they respond. It's shit or get off the pot time and break a few eggs. Not time to make appeasing pseudo agreements still outstanding 4 years from now.

Call it stupid, call it fanciful or whatever else you want. We need someone that can get in to see him and speak on his level, like Kevin O'Leary, who has the skills and is already in on the favourful edge of Trumps circle. We need to have someone sit across the table and say "what's your bottom line and how do we make it a win, win for us both. Trump needs to see we are serious about our commitments, including NATO. We need to put our money where our mouth is and move on from the petty games.

So, as you can see, I've never been for the tariffs on either side, I'm for finding out the end game and negotiating, in good faith for a change, a way to get there advantagous to both of us.

 

[Remius]

Your opinion is worth as much as mine or anyone else’s out there. Enjoy the show.

I’ll give you that. I still stand by my statement. The fact you think this is a show proves my point.

At the very least Canadian patriotism is at all time high in the face of a threat. And maybe we can get off our economic vulnerability by having an unreliable ally that will flex anytime it wants something.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Again ?

A mod warning a few pages back.

 

[Kirkhill]

Absolutely which is why it is time to get away from the sole source that is the US. They are not reliable or stable in that regard, treaties be damned.

We have one of our rare moments of agreement.

If a treaty is abrogated then two responses are possible:

Fight to restore the treaty.

Chuck the treaty out the window.

Chucking the treaty presents many more opportunities.

 

[ModlrMike]

Opportunity is born of chaos, and we are about to face substantial chaos. It's time for us to broaden our supply chains so that we're not so dependent on the US. For example, do we need citrus from Florida or California? No, we can get that from any number of other stable sources. Will there be short term pain? Yes, but we will adjust to slightly higher prices for goods over time.

 

[MilEME09]

Feel free to go through my posts and find where I said I agree with his use of tariffs.

I am on the fence, in the middle, not overly concerned of the tariffs on either side being the end game. I can think beyond the here and now and extreme rhetoric from both sides. I can see the tariff issue as a means to drive both sides into a negotiated settlement. Rather than hang around and not be able to see beyond the tariff starting blocks. Which trudeau just did. Retaliating in the here and now instead of looking a few steps further down the process.

I think both sides are wrong in the use of tariffs, but I think, maybe, Trump is using this as a cudgel. He knows the broken promises, hedging and dishonest discussions of dealing with trudeau and his jellyfish. This might well have been designed to make people act. However, they respond. It's shit or get off the pot time and break a few eggs. Not time to make appeasing pseudo agreements still outstanding 4 years from now.

Call it stupid, call it fanciful or whatever else you want. We need someone that can get in to see him and speak on his level, like Kevin O'Leary, who has the skills and is already in on the favourful edge of Trumps circle. We need to have someone sit across the table and say "what's your bottom line and how do we make it a win, win for us both. Trump needs to see we are serious about our commitments, including NATO. We need to put our money where our mouth is and move on from the petty games.

So, as you can see, I've never been for the tariffs on either side, I'm for finding out the end game and negotiating, in good faith for a change, a way to get there advantagous to both of us.

Well on the procurement front, if we wanna talk defense spending. America is now an untrustworthy partner for atleast 4 years, South Korea wants out business, let's give it to them, let's buy subs, howitzers, lead in fighter trainers etc, get them to build factories In Ontario. Convert existing factories that might get hard hit by US tariffs.

 

[FJAG]

Not surprised that in a CND/US trade tariff war thread the biggest thing Canadians worry about is alcohol. Buncha alcoholics.

Great time more than any to cut back on that poison.

My beer and wine comes from Europe. I'm golden.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

But if Glenora was distilled on Islay, it would take on some of the typical characteristics of Islay whisky. They would use local water and probably like most of the Islay distillers would likely "peat" their malt. That would significantly change the taste. And yes, the differences in water, peat, grain, still and climate translate to differences in taste.

This past Robbie Burns Day, I took advantage of a "Burns Day Special" at a local liquor store and bought two Islays,
a Bowmore 12 Y.O. View attachment 90961

and a Laphroaig Quarter Cask View attachment 90962 .

Differences between both, even though both distilleries are now owned by the same Scottish distiller company which is now a subsidiary of
Suntory Global Spirits (that also owns Jim Beam, et al), an American corporation which is a subsidiary of the Japanese beverage company Suntory. And while a discussion of whisky may seem to be straying from a thread about tariffs (maybe we should have a whisky thread), it is a fair example of globalization of ownership.

I love peated Irish whisky. Irish, not scotch. Scotch is what resulted when the Crown forbade the Irish to make whisky. The Scots started making it and cut enough corners to make it friendly to their uncouth palette.

 

[Remius]

My beer and wine comes from Europe. I'm golden.

VQA wine, local craft beer (I’m a beer snob) and Canadian whiskeys and single malt stuff from Scotland. Not overly worried either.

The only one might be my rhum. I like The Kraken dark rhum. Not sure where that is made. I should check.

Edit: made in Indiana. Damn. Ah well I guess I’ll have to stretch out the bottle I have