Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I have long said that you could fund the CAF to 4 percent of GDP, but we would still lag behind in NATO and be much the same where we are.

It's never the money, it's politics. It's procedures. It's the pork-barreling in our defence spending that makes us a paper tiger in NATO.

My only hope in all of this for the CAF and the GoC, whatever the political stripe that may be, is that it will rouse them out of the "Peace Dividend" slumber. The world has been unstable since 1945. We have used geography, proximity, and association as a Defence Policy ever since. ICBMs don't care how close to the U.S. or how far from Russia/China we are.

Don't give us a dime more, but let us spend money on defence like it matters. The fact we follow the same rules for purchasing a fighter aircraft as we do for buying office furniture for a Service Canada office is disgraceful. Don't treat defense procurement as a stimulus package for Canadian Industry. There I said it.

We spend so much money, time, and effort trying to get that money to stay in Canada; be it by awarding contracts to companies with no capability to produce items without first "retooling" and"developing the production lines", or by hamstringing perfectly competent and competitive bidders by forcing the project to be made in St. Margaret de Poutain de Champignon, QC because the ruling government either lost the seat in the election, or won it with promises.

We spend so much money and staff hours jumping through TBS regulations that are great for other departments, but are terrible for defence procurement. Some items you have to sole source, because there are technologies and capabilities no one else makes. By doing the bid process, you get companies clamoring for a project they can't deliver on, but because they tick the bright boxes on the score sheet....

I truly and honestly belief we need to split from PSPC and legislate that its not beholden to TBS, only to the PBO/PCO. The guiding principles of this new Defence Procurement department should be "Off the shelf, from somewhere else" if there isn't an industry in Canada.

BOOTFORGEN has demonstrated how well we do when we are able to actually get what we need, instead of lining the pockets of a Canadian company that got lucky.

That, but with tanks, fighters, ships, weapons systems....

 

[ytz]

Having U.S.-controlled system running Canada’s new warships too risky, warns former navy commander

U.S.-controlled command system on Canada’s new warships poses a serious risk warns the former commander of the Royal Canadian Navy.

ottawacitizen.com

 

[ytz]

Funny i just had a minor argument with a family member about Cold Lake. They just dont get it.
"They should just go there"
'Thats where they are needed"
"Dad did it"

The QoL gap between those remote bases and big cities is much larger now than it was in the past. And unemployment is actually lower. So young people have more options.

It blows my mind that a lot of people don't get this.

 

[suffolkowner]

The QoL gap between those remote bases and big cities is much larger now than it was in the past. And unemployment is actually lower. So young people have more options.

It blows my mind that a lot of people don't get this.

big differences. Our Dad was born on a farm like everyone lol. Cold Lake would be a metropolis and would have been hated for that

 

[ytz]

big differences. Our Dad was born on a farm like everyone lol. Cold Lake would be a metropolis and would have been hated for that

True. But these days even smaller cities in Canada are so different. Even Kingston or London or Saskatoon is substantially better than Cold Lake. Not just a little bit. An hour from Kingston covers a lot. An hour from Cold Lake covers a lot less.

 

[KevinB]

True. But these days even smaller cities in Canada are so different. Even Kingston or London or Saskatoon is substantially better than Cold Lake. Not just a little bit. An hour from Kingston covers a lot. An hour from Cold Lake covers a lot less.

Yup. The one hour ‘bubble’ is pretty key to most things (even ignoring the distance requirement for a leave pass).

The other aspect is if you can’t have civilization inside the hour drive window - you need to adapt:
1) A shift work schedule to accommodate (like most of the oilfield schedules of 14 On and 14 Off) which is nearly impossible for most trades that require 24/7 manning.
2) Pay More (but that isn’t alone a solution - more to follow on that)
3) Bring Civilization to you - requires an ass ton of infrastructure and investment by the GoC
4) Have a lot of activities on base that make that position attractive.


Realistically no one of the above 4 would be acceptable. The manning numbers for a modified shift work schedule would be fairly ruinous for the CAF, also since there are a lot of vacant PY’s you just can’t magically create people to fill positions. If you just pay folks more, that can work for some people, but often causes issues with a lot of single troops with money and not much to spend it on but alcohol.
Megabases can work, but you generally need a Division sized base or larger to make civilization out of nothing - and it can also attract a lot of unwanted investors from foreign influence activity to preparatory loan sharks (who often inhabit the outside of bases anyway). Number 4 can work but is also very expensive depending on your demographics, as you will have to put millions into MWR activities (that the CAF doesn’t have anyway).

My two favorite postings where Calgary - with the mountains so close you could climb or run in the warmer times and ski in the winter. Also Petawawa, mainly as my parents had a cottage 43km from base - so my weekends could be spent waterskiiing, sailing, or drinking by a beach campfire (and hunting in the fall).

 

[Maxman1]

Also, with some of those bases, they weren't exactly closed, but downsized and the reg force assets moved out (1 RCR used to be in London, 3 PPCLI used to be Chilliwack).

 

[Rifleman62]

My single Granddaughter, a Adm Clk, put her posting preferences as WX and Cold Lake.
She did fall down our stairs when she was two.

 

[ytz]

My single Granddaughter, a Adm Clk, put her posting preferences as WX and Cold Lake.
She did fall down our stairs when she was two.

Single granddaughter? I'd say she's quite smart in seeking out a target rich environment.

 

[calculus]

Yup. The one hour ‘bubble’ is pretty key to most things (even ignoring the distance requirement for a leave pass).

The other aspect is if you can’t have civilization inside the hour drive window - you need to adapt:
1) A shift work schedule to accommodate (like most of the oilfield schedules of 14 On and 14 Off) which is nearly impossible for most trades that require 24/7 manning.
2) Pay More (but that isn’t alone a solution - more to follow on that)
3) Bring Civilization to you - requires an ass ton of infrastructure and investment by the GoC
4) Have a lot of activities on base that make that position attractive.


Realistically no one of the above 4 would be acceptable. The manning numbers for a modified shift work schedule would be fairly ruinous for the CAF, also since there are a lot of vacant PY’s you just can’t magically create people to fill positions. If you just pay folks more, that can work for some people, but often causes issues with a lot of single troops with money and not much to spend it on but alcohol.
Megabases can work, but you generally need a Division sized base or larger to make civilization out of nothing - and it can also attract a lot of unwanted investors from foreign influence activity to preparatory loan sharks (who often inhabit the outside of bases anyway). Number 4 can work but is also very expensive depending on your demographics, as you will have to put millions into MWR activities (that the CAF doesn’t have anyway).

My two favorite postings where Calgary - with the mountains so close you could climb or run in the warmer times and ski in the winter. Also Petawawa, mainly as my parents had a cottage 43km from base - so my weekends could be spent waterskiiing, sailing, or drinking by a beach campfire (and hunting in the fall).

Pet was a great posting.

 

[Furniture]

Pet was a great posting.

For you...

When I was a 19 year old posted to Cold Lake it didn't seem too bad initially either... It was far larger than the hamlet of about 300 I grew-up a mile outside of.

That said, I can also completely understand why lots of people born in places like Montreal, Richmond, Calgary, etc... don't want to live "in the middle of nowhere". Our primary recruiting demographic is no longer young men who like doing outdoors stuff.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Pet was a great posting.

I liked many things about Pet. Algonquin Park; the rivers; the outdoors. The jobs were fun, too.

The ability to meet single women was not high on the list of great things about Petawawa/Pembroke.

 

[ytz]

Our primary recruiting demographic is no longer young men who like doing outdoors stuff.

You'd be surprised how many people don't get this. Or are simply bitter about this.

We're in a country with a catastrophically low birth rate (therefore aging quickly), with high urbanization (including massive urban agglomerations) and a substantial proportion of immigrants. This, by definition, means that we have to pull from a diverse, urban and older population.

Some of them maybe young men who like outdoors stuff. But they probably also want to get Tinder matches who have a full set of teeth, on the weekends. Just liking outdoors stuff doesn't automatically mean they'll sign up anymore either.

Moreover, a lot of our most in demand skillsets are in direct competition with industry. Cyber, space, specialists like NDT, etc. These are areas where we want geeks and nerds. And we're competing directly with industry that offers higher pay and more interesting work. Appeal to patriotism only goes so far.

 

[KevinB]

The ability to meet single women was not high on the list of great things about Petawawa/Pembroke.

Clearly you didn’t travel to the Quebec side enough
Ottawa was always within weekend range.

Pet’s major failure is/was the keeping of a girlfriend - or at least a girl that you wanted to marry, as few of them wanted to be stuck there.

Frankly to me the GoC/CAF needs to really look back to creating BN level (or equivalent) units back in urban cities - or at least on the outskirts of them, understanding that the Navy is going to need to be by deep water ports.

You need to ask yourself what is a reasonable commute? Sure one can live in the shacks for the first bit if single, but eventually everyone grows up. I’ll be honest anything more than a 35-40 minute commute one way gets stale really quickly. I’ve done 2hr one way commutes, and it takes a toll on you, and your family - and even working off peak schedules to drop the commute isn’t really ideal.
Plus the CAF isn’t a big fan of letting troops live hours away from their place of duty (fairly reasonable expectation given the job).

But some places will end up sucking worse than others, and while the can be somewhat subjective to the eye of the beholder - there needs to be a way to make the worst sort of places more palatable.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Clearly you didn’t travel to the Quebec side enough
Ottawa was always within weekend range.

Pet’s major failure is/was the keeping of a girlfriend - or at least a girl that you wanted to marry, as few of them wanted to be stuck there.

Frankly to me the GoC/CAF needs to really look back to creating BN level (or equivalent) units back in urban cities - or at least on the outskirts of them, understanding that the Navy is going to need to be by deep water ports.

You need to ask yourself what is a reasonable commute? Sure one can live in the shacks for the first bit if single, but eventually everyone grows up. I’ll be honest anything more than a 35-40 minute commute one way gets stale really quickly. I’ve done 2hr one way commutes, and it takes a toll on you, and your family - and even working off peak schedules to drop the commute isn’t really ideal.
Plus the CAF isn’t a big fan of letting troops live hours away from their place of duty (fairly reasonable expectation given the job).

But some places will end up sucking worse than others, and while the can be somewhat subjective to the eye of the beholder - there needs to be a way to make the worst sort of places more palatable.

Most of the belwo Infantry regiments are based in urban centres, some in our biggest urban centres. The vast majority are reserve units, the good ol' Militia, which were based in the cities primarily for the purpose of recruiting, retention and rapid mobilization.

Unfortunately, most of the Reg F units have been condemned to exile 'beyond the pale'

A quick look at the other arms and services will reveal a similar pattern.

Maybe we should just reactivate a few militia units, in place, and see how that might improve recruiting and retention.

Infantry Regiments - Canada.ca

List of infantry regiments, with links to their badges, mottoes, marches, alliances, battle honours, lineages, operational histories, colours and camp flags.

www.canada.ca

 

[FJAG]

Most of the belwo Infantry regiments are based in urban centres, some in our biggest urban centres. The vast majority are reserve units, the good ol' Militia, which were based in the cities primarily for the purpose of recruiting, retention and rapid mobilization.

Unfortunately, most of the Reg F units have been condemned to exile 'beyond the pale'

A quick look at the other arms and services will reveal a similar pattern.

Maybe we should just reactivate a few militia units, in place, and see how that might improve recruiting and retention.

Infantry Regiments - Canada.ca

List of infantry regiments, with links to their badges, mottoes, marches, alliances, battle honours, lineages, operational histories, colours and camp flags.

www.canada.ca

You've read my book. And if you haven't, you should.

 

[YZT580]

You'd be surprised how many people don't get this. Or are simply bitter about this.

We're in a country with a catastrophically low birth rate (therefore aging quickly), with high urbanization (including massive urban agglomerations) and a substantial proportion of immigrants. This, by definition, means that we have to pull from a diverse, urban and older population.

Some of them maybe young men who like outdoors stuff. But they probably also want to get Tinder matches who have a full set of teeth, on the weekends. Just liking outdoors stuff doesn't automatically mean they'll sign up anymore either.

Moreover, a lot of our most in demand skillsets are in direct competition with industry. Cyber, space, specialists like NDT, etc. These are areas where we want geeks and nerds. And we're competing directly with industry that offers higher pay and more interesting work. Appeal to patriotism only goes so far.

possibly so but the greater issue comes under the heading of indoctrination. We have at least 20 years worth of a school system that has put down manly activities and labelled those who pursues them as Neanderthals. That same system has put down those who admit to being proud Canadians and in that they have been supported by their own government and by the press. The very fact that there is a significant backlog of applicants is encouraging: it means that the left hasn't enitirely succeeded. I am a big fan of cadets. Encourage teens to get involved. Organize summer camps in Meaford for the cadets. Bring a couple of those 295's down to London or Hamilton and get the air cadets on board. Bring the Kingstons to the nearest port and ship the navy cadets out for a couple of days. Those are the kids that with the right encouragement will fill the postings regardless of location and we need to start now before those bases in Inuvik and Churchill or where ever get built.

 

[quadrapiper]

Our primary recruiting demographic is no longer young men who like doing outdoors stuff.

To quibble: there's lots of those in Greater Vancouver, and on Vancouver Island, along with a healthy contingent of young women who enjoy the same things. They also like living in or within easy reach of a major metropolis.

What's really disappeared are the masses of young men doing hardening, dangerous, and possibly badly-paid learn-as-you-go outdoor jobs from 16-18 on: most of the remaining dangerous jobs pay well (e.g. the oil patch and various forms of camp work) and farming, forestry, and fisheries jobs have become either safer or less numerous or both.

Equally, there seem to be fewer "fun" opportunities: no Germany or reliable round of visits to friendly "party" ports, and enough murmuring about e.g. not getting much range time to suggest that there's limited exposure to the cool parts of whatever someone might be interested in.

 

[daftandbarmy]

To quibble: there's lots of those in Greater Vancouver, and on Vancouver Island, along with a healthy contingent of young women who enjoy the same things. They also like living in or within easy reach of a major metropolis.

What's really disappeared are the masses of young men doing hardening, dangerous, and possibly badly-paid learn-as-you-go outdoor jobs from 16-18 on: most of the remaining dangerous jobs pay well (e.g. the oil patch and various forms of camp work) and farming, forestry, and fisheries jobs have become either safer or less numerous or both.

Equally, there seem to be fewer "fun" opportunities: no Germany or reliable round of visits to friendly "party" ports, and enough murmuring about e.g. not getting much range time to suggest that there's limited exposure to the cool parts of whatever someone might be interested in.

Most WW1 CEF troops were recruited in cities. The myth of the 'country-boy filled battalions' is strong.

Recruit and base your regiments in the cities - it's a pattern we should try to keep going:

An Army Drawn from Across the Country​

The soldiers who formed the Canadian Expeditionary Force were drawn from across the country. While more Canadians lived in rural areas than cities, it is unclear if this divide was reflected in the CEF. Most units were actually recruited in urban centres, where much of the recruiting effort was directed, and statistical breakdowns by province only include data from the place of enlistment and not the place of birth.

People - In Uniform | Canada and the First World War

Canada's contribution to the First World War led to growing autonomy and international recognition, but at great cost.

www.warmuseum.ca

 

[quadrapiper]

Most WW1 CEF troops were recruited in cities. The myth of the 'country-boy filled battalions' is strong.

Recruit and base your regiments in the cities - it's a pattern we should try to keep going:

An Army Drawn from Across the Country​

The soldiers who formed the Canadian Expeditionary Force were drawn from across the country. While more Canadians lived in rural areas than cities, it is unclear if this divide was reflected in the CEF. Most units were actually recruited in urban centres, where much of the recruiting effort was directed, and statistical breakdowns by province only include data from the place of enlistment and not the place of birth.

People - In Uniform | Canada and the First World War

Canada's contribution to the First World War led to growing autonomy and international recognition, but at great cost.

www.warmuseum.ca

Had forgotten about that; thank you.

Expect some of the same points re: shifts in workplace compensation, safety, etc. apply to urban work and urban life.

 

[RangerRay]

In my line of work, I have had plenty of rural farm kids ask about getting into my line of work. These kids are outdoorsy and like to hunt, which one would think would be the ideal demo for the army as well. But as soon as I tell them that they would have to leave town to get a post secondary diploma or degree and that they probably wouldn’t get posted to their home community when they get hired, they suddenly lose interest.

It’s not just city kids that don’t want to leave home.