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Indirect Fires Modernization Project - C3/M777 Replacement

I don't think the long range rocket artillery mission sets have changed at all. I think Ukraine has just proved the concept. Particularly the HIMARS is just the launcher, the weapon is the ammunition. The ammunition is selected based on the desired effects.

This sort of system is a Divisional asset. I suspect as the Army's thinking is changing we're looking bigger than a Brigade deployment, and probably augmentation of a allied Division if not deploying our own Division.
With the advent of Advancing with Purpose - and built on Canada's Bosnia experiences - our structuring and equipment procurement turned very much to the systems needed to deploy a battle group. That's why the artillery turned to composite gun/STA batteries in Afghanistan. For back home, there were just enough systems of everything procured to facilitate training (at least as far as guns and STA was concerned because trucks, command posts etc were and continue to be a big problem).

There was a notion (I have a hard time calling it a realistic plan) to go as high as deploying a brigade but within the arty no one regiment had the equipment necessary to do that. It would have needed the efforts of at least two, probably all three, regiments to put out a Force 2013 Line of Operations 3 "Maximum Expeditionary (Non-Sustained - Single Roto) 3 gun battery option" of three six-gun batteries, an STA battery, and an air defence battery for a total of 1,106 gunners. There was also an optional LRPF battery contemplated in circumstances where appropriate. Things haven't changed much since then and that's roughly what an LSCO artillery regiment needs to look like these days in order to support a brigade.

But SSE put the battle group concept into formal outputs. One would have to aggregate several battle group tasks to form a rump brigade. In other words, up until the recent Ukraine situation Canada pretty much stayed with the AwP concepts.

SSE notwithstanding, we did have and do have doctrine for bigger things, just not the requisite people and equipment and some of the capabilities. For something like HIMARS, we do consider it a divisional asset, but it has uses outside of that. If we deploy a brigade, then HIMARS would be a slice of a division's support that Canada would control. The same with air defence - its a slice of the divisional asset that stays with our brigade. Both of those systems were part of our doctrine for 4 CMBG in the 70s to the 90s. We did acquire AD big time but, while MLRS was part of our 1 Cdn Div doctrine, it was never acquired.

On top of that both LRPF and GBAD now also have uses for much lower level deployments. American HIMARS was deployed in Kandahar while we had a battlegroup there and, on occasion, fired missions in support of Canadians where range or effects were an issue. While we didn't deploy air defence to Kandahar (except ASCC cells) I don't think we'd deploy a battlegroup anywhere these days, where there is a chance of hostilities, without some form of VLLAD (either ours or an ally's) for anti drone and anti-rocket work if nothing else.

The real issue is the scale that you see the army deploying on as the number of systems and their organizational configuration varies if on the one hand you are: 1) supporting deployed battle groups; or 2) are planning on deploying a whole brigade with a slice of divisional assets; or 3) want to be able to deploy a Canadian-led multinational division with a core of divisional assets supporting two or more Canadian brigades. To put things in perspective, Canadian artillery, as it stands, can do the 1) battlegroup but would be hard pressed to do a 2) brigade and incapable at all of the 3) div. Under the current capital projects' stated numbers (and with heavy ARes participation - which is the plan), it could support a 2) rotational sustained mech brigade and could also form a 3) non-sustained divisional artillery brigade.

đŸ»
 
With the advent of Advancing with Purpose - and built on Canada's Bosnia experiences - our structuring and equipment procurement turned very much to the systems needed to deploy a battle group. That's why the artillery turned to composite gun/STA batteries in Afghanistan. For back home, there were just enough systems of everything procured to facilitate training (at least as far as guns and STA was concerned because trucks, command posts etc were and continue to be a big problem).

Meanwhile, probably the worst thing that came out of the Bosnia era... ;)

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From Noah Gairn's substack.

(As an aside, does anyone know how he gets this info and what he actually does career wise?)
always seems dialed in. A good follow on Twitter. Pretty sure they are just an interested civilian but always up to date on the RFI etc
 
So what's the philosophical difference between HIMARS and Chunmoo?

On a limb here as I'm fully outside looking in but Chunmoo seems a more... volumetric system that is willing to accept being punched back at a bit.

Which kinda makes sense as they have been designed to fight on the Korean peninsula.
 
So what's the philosophical difference between HIMARS and Chunmoo?

On a limb here as I'm fully outside looking in but Chunmoo seems a more... volumetric system that is willing to accept being punched back at a bit.

Which kinda makes sense as they have been designed to fight on the Korean peninsula.
id be interested in an evaluation of K239/Himars/Puls too

the double module vs single on the HIMARS stands out for C130 transportability but can they not field a single module?
Is C130 transport that important?
 
Unless your major threat is out of Moncton, then yes, being able to deploy to austere airfields is important.
do we need more C130s then? Or how do we intend to deploy in reality?

A HIMARS platoon of 3 launchers times 2 for a battery?
A HIMARS platoon consists of another 4 or 5 Humvees and 5 5ton FMTV supply trucks?
Can we move a HIMARS platoon with all our C130s?
 
Will our prospective HIMARS come on FMTV's as well? Or will we adapt it to one of our other truck platforms?
I count over 20 FMTV's per 6 launcher battery. Will we operate with that support depth?
24 launchers is over 80 FMTV trucks
 
Will our prospective HIMARS come on FMTV's as well? Or will we adapt it to one of our other truck platforms?
I count over 20 FMTV's per 6 launcher battery. Will we operate with that support depth?
24 launchers is over 80 FMTV trucks
I would assume so. I don't think they build it on any other platform, and we already operate the M1148 MTV with load handling system, plus the HLVW is based on the same Steyr 1491 design as the FMTV.
 
I would assume so. I don't think they build it on any other platform, and we already operate the M1148 MTV with load handling system, plus the HLVW is based on the same Steyr 1491 design as the FMTV.
the HLVW will be out before we get the HIMARS though? I guess its some continuity
Do you think the entire HIMARS support system will stay FMTV then?
How many M11148 MTV do we have now?
 
do we need more C130s then? Or how do we intend to deploy in reality?

A HIMARS platoon of 3 launchers times 2 for a battery?
A HIMARS platoon consists of another 4 or 5 Humvees and 5 5ton FMTV supply trucks?
Can we move a HIMARS platoon with all our C130s?
If the question is do we need more the answer is yes.

We have 17 C130s. The US has successfully flown single humans, offloaded, shot, reloaded, and flown for fire missions in Syria. That’s part of why it matters.
 
If the question is do we need more the answer is yes.

We have 17 C130s. The US has successfully flown single humans, offloaded, shot, reloaded, and flown for fire missions in Syria. That’s part of why it matters.
I noted articles several years back of National Guard HIMARS battalions participating in these "shoot and scoot" deployment exercises with HIMARS (they call them HIRAIN - HIMARS RApid INfiltration). There's not much need to fly in anything in the way of any support vehicles because they generally fly in - fire - and fly out to a rearming point. This one is within the US but I've seen ones flying into the Middle East.


Even the Aussies are doing this.


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We have 17 C130s. The US has successfully flown single humans, offloaded, shot, reloaded, and flown for fire missions in Syria. That’s part of why it matters.
The Army may think that’s cool and useful but thats a joint force employment concept paired with a foreign policy which together represent a strategic national policy that has no grounding in reality whatsoever in Canada.

If we get PRSM with its 500km plus range, the CA better figure out how to employ that. Expecting the CMBGs to employ that capability will likely be the ridiculous default.

I actually am curious why the rapid push for HIMARS over a SP howitzer, which seems to be proceeding more slowly. The SP Howiter is likely more relevant to the MNB in Latvia.
 
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