Indirect Fires Modernization Project - C3/M777 Replacement

[daftandbarmy]

But as a Ukrainian Pl Commander you would have FPVs, as far as I understand the situation.

I don't think so... and a Pl Comd probably couldn't see a 120mm MOR as it is usually positioned a few kms from where the Infantry are doing their thing.

If a Platoon comes under accurate shellfire you dig deeper, or get the hell out of there. The Big Giant Heads need to handle the counter battery stuff.

 

[FJAG]

Or shall I put it another way?

You are a Ukrainian platoon commander being harassed by buddy in an open top Stryker with a 120mm mortar. Which would you call for? 1 round 155 HE or 8 FPVs?

How's the weather? Raining? Windy? Snow?

The 155 doesn't care.

 

[daftandbarmy]

How's the weather? Raining? Windy? Snow?

The 155 doesn't care.

155mm - the Honey badger of indirect fire support

 

[Kirkhill]

I'm guessing that the professionals have already seen this but other folks might find it interesting.

Dispatches from a Ukrainian UAS Strike Battalion

Operation UNIFIER trains, professionalizes, and builds capacity for soldiers and officers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU). One portion of this mission is the Leadership Development Training Element (LDTE), in cooperation with Latvian National Armed Forces, which “instructs Ukrainian junior...

www.canada.ca

 

[PrairieFella]

How many 155s to take out the Stryker Mark? Not allowing for M1156s or Excaliburs.

I appreciate that there are a lot of FPVs per video but equally there are a fair number of arty rounds per AFV. Especially one that can move after the first round.

On the other hand, we've seen an ACSV shrug off 8 FPVs. Remember, you are only seeing the successful missions, often replayed at various angles for propaganda purposes. Drones are an effective, but not some sort of panacea.

 

[markppcli]

But as a Ukrainian Pl Commander you would have FPVs, as far as I understand the situation.

No, highly unlikely you’d be working FPVs at a platoon level. They are operated by trained specialists in dedicated teams. You’re going to request, and may or may not get drone support. And it’s going to come at the speed of a quad copter, one after another. I’ll take tube guns thanks.

Taking a look at the situation from the point of view of those mortarmen in that Stryker, if they are engaged by 1x 155 or 8x FPV (with 1 or possibly even 2 hits (5-9 FPV per hit you said)) do you think they would be inclined to break off and relocate as you suggest? In which case, in both cases, neutralization would have been achieved. No?

No because half those FPVs are jammed, destroyed, crash, or malfunction well before the target. The mortarmen in that Stryker - odd choice but what ever - are in an open topped box. They’re going to be in a world of hurt from air burst.

 

[Kirkhill]

Points taken.

I still think that there is a change in the weather though, when a financially straitened country like Ukraine has found the means to, effectively, produce millions of hand grenades and mortar bombs that can loiter in the target area, observe it, report and be flown directly to the target.

I understand that millions of those rounds will not achieve their potential effect but I think the same could be said of conventional hand grenades and mortar bombs.

Technology continues to get cheaper and make more things possible. And plastic from hydrocarbons is cheaper than steel from iron, even without Trump's tariffs.

 

[FJAG]

I still think that there is a change in the weather though,

It's not a simple change though. It's a developing continuum of measures and counter measures.

It's an interesting time, however. Air defence has made the use of close air support by either helicopters or fighters a very questionable practice which seems to be devolving to much longer range shots. Air Defence had primarily been developing over the last half century to meet those threats. There are wide ranging sets of equipment and tactics to deal with those threats and in countering the defences.

UAVs in all their forms, while not new, have only recently been seen as viable and useful tools. They and their countermeasures are in a nascent form and there will be much development happening on both sides. I foresee a fairly lengthy period during which one side or the other - measures or countermeasures - predominates. I'd say that we're in for a bumpy ride and we shouldn't yet throw out some of our old babies with the bathwater. Brute force and dominating ground are still the hallmarks of any army.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Just wait till you get into a COIN ops and the opposition is competent enough to make and deploy it's own drones against you.

 

[Kirkhill]

It's not a simple change though. It's a developing continuum of measures and counter measures.

It's an interesting time, however. Air defence has made the use of close air support by either helicopters or fighters a very questionable practice which seems to be devolving to much longer range shots. Air Defence had primarily been developing over the last half century to meet those threats. There are wide ranging sets of equipment and tactics to deal with those threats and in countering the defences.

UAVs in all their forms, while not new, have only recently been seen as viable and useful tools. They and their countermeasures are in a nascent form and there will be much development happening on both sides. I foresee a fairly lengthy period during which one side or the other - measures or countermeasures - predominates. I'd say that we're in for a bumpy ride and we shouldn't yet throw out some of our old babies with the bathwater. Brute force and dominating ground are still the hallmarks of any army.

Absolutely -

Another favourite word of mine is "interface". It is the space between two conditions. You know when you are not in it but it is hard to discern when you are in it.

My working example is separating oil and water. The interface, also known as the rag layer, is the mixing zone between the oil phase and the water phase. It is where you find the emulsifiers that chemically bind the two immiscible liquids together. Gravity separates the oil and the water phase, gravity and time. The more gravity and the more time then the cleaner the separation and the smaller the interface. But you never get rid of the interface. At the water end it is primarily water with a bit of oil. At the oil end it is primarily oil with a bit of water. And to complicate matters, even after separation your pure oil will still have water in it and your pure water will still have oil in it.

Grayness...

Another form of interface - a blizzard - between clear air and a snowdrift.

Interfaces are not known for their clarity.

....

The big issue with the UAVs is their accessibility due to the cost of the technologies.

 

[Kirkhill]

This article - 25th Infantry Division swapping a battalion of towed howitzers for 16 HIMARS

25th ID switching out Howitzers for HIMARS in Hawaii

The move is part of the Army’s transformation initiative.

www.defenseone.com

Hawaii-Based Army Unit Receives HIMARS for Pacific Operations - USNI News

The U.S. Army’s 25th Infantry Division, one of the service’s most frequently deployed units throughout the Indo-Pacific, received its first High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems this week, a move that the unit said will increase their effectiveness in the region. An Air Force C-5 Super Galaxy...

news.usni.org

 

[FJAG]

This article - 25th Infantry Division swapping a battalion of towed howitzers for 16 HIMARS

25th ID switching out Howitzers for HIMARS in Hawaii

The move is part of the Army’s transformation initiative.

www.defenseone.com

Hawaii-Based Army Unit Receives HIMARS for Pacific Operations - USNI News

The U.S. Army’s 25th Infantry Division, one of the service’s most frequently deployed units throughout the Indo-Pacific, received its first High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems this week, a move that the unit said will increase their effectiveness in the region. An Air Force C-5 Super Galaxy...

news.usni.org

Based on the number of troops converting, it sounds like they'll probably retire one of their 105mm batteries in order to partially crew these systems.

10th Mountain and 101 Airborne are the two other IBCT-oriented Transformation in Contact divisions at this time. Phase 2.0 with the 1st ABCT, 2 Inf Div at Fort Stewart and 2nd Cavalry Regiment which is an SBCT in Germany are next. It's worth keeping an eye on what is happening to these brigades.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Is Archer on the potential list? Just wondering …

 

[Kirkhill]

 

[Cloud Cover]

View attachment 94694

I feel like maybe my mother in law was driving these …

 

[FJAG]

In neither case does the terrain look challenging.

I gather the second picture is of a Volvo A30D articulated dump Hauler that the Archer chassis is based on. Looks like a design weakness.