Indirect Fires Modernization Project - C3/M777 Replacement

[GR66]

Is Archer on the potential list? Just wondering …

Apparently there are issues with the 8 wheeled Caesar system as well...

Czech Army threatens to halt payments for Caesar howitzers

The Czech Ministry of Defense is warning French defense firm KNDS that it may halt payments for 62 Caesar 8x8 self-propelled howitzers after repeated failures to meet critical performance standards, Novinky has reported. Lubor Koudelka, Chief Armaments Director, sent a letter to KNDS urging the...

defence-blog.com

It seems that taking a weapons system that works on one vehicle chassis and just plopping it on a different chassis isn't as easy as you'd think.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Apparently there are issues with the 8 wheeled Caesar system as well...

Czech Army threatens to halt payments for Caesar howitzers

The Czech Ministry of Defense is warning French defense firm KNDS that it may halt payments for 62 Caesar 8x8 self-propelled howitzers after repeated failures to meet critical performance standards, Novinky has reported. Lubor Koudelka, Chief Armaments Director, sent a letter to KNDS urging the...

defence-blog.com

It seems that taking a weapons system that works on one vehicle chassis and just plopping it on a different chassis isn't as easy as you'd think.

Does read promising.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Apparently there are issues with the 8 wheeled Caesar system as well...

Czech Army threatens to halt payments for Caesar howitzers

The Czech Ministry of Defense is warning French defense firm KNDS that it may halt payments for 62 Caesar 8x8 self-propelled howitzers after repeated failures to meet critical performance standards, Novinky has reported. Lubor Koudelka, Chief Armaments Director, sent a letter to KNDS urging the...

defence-blog.com

It seems that taking a weapons system that works on one vehicle chassis and just plopping it on a different chassis isn't as easy as you'd think.

Tangentially, I'm enjoying seeing the French being called to account by the Czechs.

They and the British now have them surrounded ...

 

[childs56]

Apparently there are issues with the 8 wheeled Caesar system as well...

Czech Army threatens to halt payments for Caesar howitzers

The Czech Ministry of Defense is warning French defense firm KNDS that it may halt payments for 62 Caesar 8x8 self-propelled howitzers after repeated failures to meet critical performance standards, Novinky has reported. Lubor Koudelka, Chief Armaments Director, sent a letter to KNDS urging the...

defence-blog.com

It seems that taking a weapons system that works on one vehicle chassis and just plopping it on a different chassis isn't as easy as you'd think.

They way I read it, the Fire Control System is not compatible with the customers Specs. Without having the integration from the French System they can not make the boomy things go boom properly.
Chassis vs. chassis should not be a problem, if that is a problem then one should not be buying anything from the maker.

 

[FJAG]

They way I read it, the Fire Control System is not compatible with the customers Specs. Without having the integration from the French System they can not make the boomy things go boom properly.
Chassis vs. chassis should not be a problem, if that is a problem then one should not be buying anything from the maker.

That's the way that I read it. It seems like for these two orders there has been a change in the fire control system and in ammunition integration. The chassis itself doesn't seem to eb an issue as far as this article is concerned.

That said, changing the chassis can be a big issue. I look particulalry at the RCH 155 and still have some disbelief that it functions well over time on the Boxer chassis. The Piranha 10 x 10 visually appears more suitable albeit that's not a given either. The RCH is a heavy box to put on the back of something that tactically has to handle both rough terrain travel and the shock of full-charge, long-range rounds. Those are very heavy stresses that the original system wasn't designed for.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Plus the new chassis and mount might work for 50 or so rounds and then unexplained errors creep in do to unexpected/undetected fatigue.

 

[FJAG]

Plus the new chassis and mount might work for 50 or so rounds and then unexplained errors creep in do to unexpected/undetected fatigue.

There's too little consideration given to that in the glossy brochures.

The trend is for longer barrels with tougher chambers and charges and projectiles that achieve more range.

In short, the higher the charge the more barrel wear and chassis stress is produced. That's why gunners usually select the lowest charge to reach a given target. The more the doctrine depends on long range fires, the higher the CSS/maintenance burden is in keeping the guns mechanically capable. That means replacing barrels and metal fatigued components on the turret and the gun's chassis.

There's a reason that I keep whining about tracked v wheeled SP guns. The advantage you might get once or twice by barrelling down a good road at 90kph in a wheeled SP doesn't hold a candle to the off-road capability, the stability or the robustness that a proper tracked SP provides 100% of the time.

 

[suffolkowner]

Is Archer on the potential list? Just wondering …

View attachment 94694

interesting we never flipped the front over always the back end

 

[quadrapiper]

There's too little consideration given to that in the glossy brochures.

No "we gave three of these to the most aggressive drivers in NATO to thrash around a nest of logging roads, clear cuts, rocky fields, and ditches, while firing enough rounds to burn through x barrels," then?

 

[suffolkowner]

That's the way that I read it. It seems like for these two orders there has been a change in the fire control system and in ammunition integration. The chassis itself doesn't seem to eb an issue as far as this article is concerned.

That said, changing the chassis can be a big issue. I look particulalry at the RCH 155 and still have some disbelief that it functions well over time on the Boxer chassis. The Piranha 10 x 10 visually appears more suitable albeit that's not a given either. The RCH is a heavy box to put on the back of something that tactically has to handle both rough terrain travel and the shock of full-charge, long-range rounds. Those are very heavy stresses that the original system wasn't designed for.

I think Boxer was supposed to have more weight capacity than Piranha 10x10 or at least LAV 10x10

 

[ueo]

Or shall I put it another way?

You are a Ukrainian platoon commander being harassed by buddy in an open top Stryker with a 120mm mortar. Which would you call for? 1 round 155 HE or 8 FPVs?

Both!

 

[Fabius]

Here is an interesting aspect of the indirect fire modernization being undertaken in the UK.

British Army’s New Asgard System Delivers Tenfold Firepower on the Battlefield

British Army’s New Asgard System Delivers Tenfold Firepower on the Battlefield

armyrecognition.com

It’s not just the munitions or munition launcher anymore. The Israeli IDF has been using something similar to Asgard, called Fire Weaver for around 4-5 years now. It’s seen use in Gaza. The US and NATO are using Palantir Technologies Maven Smart System more and more as well to integrate and control fires.

If our fire’s modernization does include these sorts of systems we are going to be very very very far behind by the 2030-2035 timeframe.

 

[FJAG]

Here is an interesting aspect of the indirect fire modernization being undertaken in the UK.

British Army’s New Asgard System Delivers Tenfold Firepower on the Battlefield

British Army’s New Asgard System Delivers Tenfold Firepower on the Battlefield

armyrecognition.com

It’s not just the munitions or munition launcher anymore. The Israeli IDF has been using something similar to Asgard, called Fire Weaver for around 4-5 years now. It’s seen use in Gaza. The US and NATO are using Palantir Technologies Maven Smart System more and more as well to integrate and control fires.

If our fire’s modernization does include these sorts of systems we are going to be very very very far behind by the 2030-2035 timeframe.

The Joint Fires Modernization project is working on these issues. An IOC of more probably 2026-7.

 

[Fabius]

The Joint Fires Modernization project is working on these issues. An IOC of more probably 2026-7.

Hopefully. My understanding was that was looking more like a Cdn AFATDS type system. Still needed but these additional ones are another step beyond.

Interestingly as well our program is allocated $250-499 Million Cdn, whereas, although not super clear, the UK Asgard Program has been allocated or is part of a 1 Billion UK pound program.

Details on NATOs Maven contract don’t seem to include the costs but the US military contract for Maven to expand from hundreds to thousands of licenses for five years cost around $500 million US.

Palantir Strengthens Its Position: Signs an Express Agreement with NATO

Artificial intelligence (AI) solutions provider Palantir is currently operating as a major player in the defense sector. This is evidenced by its latest collaboration with NATO, which adopted Palantir’s advanced AI system in a record short time, aiming to enhance its capabilities during key...

investingfox.com

 

[FJAG]

Hopefully. My understanding was that was looking more like a Cdn AFATDS type system. Still needed but these additional ones are another step beyond.

Interestingly as well our program is allocated $250-499 Million Cdn, whereas, although not super clear, the UK Asgard Program has been allocated or is part of a 1 Billion UK pound program.

We're smaller - also walk before you run. We've only been working on this type of stuff for three decades now. AFATDS itself came out 30 years ago and is now running on version 8 or 9 now with AFATDS AXS.

I haven't heard of any AI module to speed up decision making in JFM . . . maybe v2.0? I think much of the cost for the UK may be in the Dart 250 one way strike drones.

 

[Fabius]

We're smaller - also walk before you run. We've only been working on this type of stuff for three decades now. AFATDS itself came out 30 years ago and is now running on version 8 or 9 now with AFATDS AXS.

I haven't heard of any AI module to speed up decision making in JFM . . . maybe v2.0? I think much of the cost for the UK may be in the Dart 250 one way strike drones.

Agree on the walk before run theme but we can’t take decades anymore.
It seems Asgard went from zero to now very quickly. Announced as an objective in Oct 24, contracts signed in Jan 25, Prototype IOC in May 25.

NATO signed its MSS contract in under 6 months.

 

[Kirkhill]

The "eyes" of Asgard.

Modini Dart 250 : Great Britain

www.armedconflicts.com

FPV with 250 km range at 400 km/h available in EW, ISR and Strike configurations.

.....

Perhaps Canada can come up with something.

Canada’s Supersonic Falcon Drone Set to Compete with America’s XQ-58 Valkyrie in Germany

Canada’s Supersonic Falcon Drone Set to Compete with America’s XQ-58 Valkyrie in Germany

armyrecognition.com

The Falcon is bigger than DART 250 and smaller than the Valkyrie XQ-58. But it is supersonic.

We used to do drones.

 

[GR66]

Perhaps Canada can come up with something.

Canada’s Supersonic Falcon Drone Set to Compete with America’s XQ-58 Valkyrie in Germany

Canada’s Supersonic Falcon Drone Set to Compete with America’s XQ-58 Valkyrie in Germany

armyrecognition.com

The Falcon is bigger than DART 250 and smaller than the Valkyrie XQ-58. But it is supersonic.

I'm all in favour of a Canadian-made solution but I think the Falcon isn't suitable for a Loyal Wingman-type UAV for Canada.

From the article on the Falcon:

Reaching speeds of Mach 1.6 and offering endurance beyond 30 minutes, it can operate at altitudes up to 10,000 meters while carrying a 50 kg payload.

Assuming that the 30min endurance can be achieved at full speed (not guaranteed) then the combat radius of the Falcon is just 490km (thanks to ChatGPT for making the calculations quicker):

1. Convert Mach to speed in km/h​

Mach speed varies with altitude, but a common approximation at high altitude is:
Mach 1 ≈ 1,225 km/h
So, Mach 1.6 ≈ 1.6 × 1,225 = 1,960 km/h

2. Calculate total distance in 30 minutes​

Distance = Speed × Time
= 1,960 km/h × 0.5 h = 980 km
This is the total range in 30 minutes at Mach 1.6.

3. Estimate combat radius​

The combat radius is typically half of the total flight range, assuming the aircraft must return to base:
Combat radius ≈ 980 / 2 = 490 km

The other issue is the 50kg payload. Again from ChatGPT:

As of today, no air-to-air missiles currently in active NATO service weigh less than 50 kg.

NATO Air-to-Air Missiles: Active in Use
Here are the commonly used NATO short- and medium-range missiles and their launch weights:

• AIM‑9 Sidewinder (USA) – ~86 kg
• IRIS‑T (Germany-led) – ~87.4 kg
• ASRAAM (United Kingdom, MBDA AIM‑132) – ~88 kg

So, approximately half the combat radius of the F-35's it would be supporting (and no air-to-air refueling capability) and not enough payload to carry even a single short-range AA missile.

 

[Kirkhill]

I'm all in favour of a Canadian-made solution but I think the Falcon isn't suitable for a Loyal Wingman-type UAV for Canada.

From the article on the Falcon:

Assuming that the 30min endurance can be achieved at full speed (not guaranteed) then the combat radius of the Falcon is just 490km (thanks to ChatGPT for making the calculations quicker):

The other issue is the 50kg payload. Again from ChatGPT:

So, approximately half the combat radius of the F-35's it would be supporting (and no air-to-air refueling capability) and not enough payload to carry even a single short-range AA missile.

I agree that Falcon is not a Loyal Wingman solution for anyone. It is more munition than aircraft. But we need smart drones and munitions as well.

 

[Rifleman62]

Info:

Raw: Archer Firing For Media In Estonia (Doesn’t Quite Go As Planned)​

Here Are The Main Reasons Why The UK Chose The RCH 155, Over K9, Caesar, Archer Howitzer​