Barred entry into USA for training

[Lumber]

I know when we went down to the USMC MWTC we had three guys who had DUI's, that are generally a no-go for the US, and they had no issues. We didn't bring passports either. In fact while in the CAF, I came down here probably 10x times, and never had a passport (one time it was just 4 guys on a Herc flight - and I know there were no passports as I was the senior guy for the 4, and had the NTO paperwork.

Of course that was from the 80's to the early 2000's which probably goes to the NTO's.

I know guys who have come down for stuff here recently and they have had passports.

One time coming down on a bus full of RMC students on our way to WestPoint, the boarder guard just came on the bus, stood at the front and said "Do you all have your passports?". We all raised our passports up in the air. He took a quick glance around and said "Carry-on", got off the bus, and left.

Another time I confused the fuck out of a border control agent. Me and another buddy of mine were flying down to Miami to meet a ship. Not because we were reporting to the ship, but just because she was going to be in Miami for the weekend, we had friends aboard, and they offered to let us stay aboard and go partying with them for the weekend. So, we were Canadian military, travelling to a Canadian military ship, but not to work, and the ship would be our hotel? I think she finally let us through because she was exhausted trying to make sense of it and didn't think we were a threat.

 

[KevinB]

Another time I confused the fuck out of a border control agent. Me and another buddy of mine were flying down to Miami to meet a ship. Not because we were reporting to the ship, but just because she was going to be in Miami for the weekend, we had friends aboard, and they offered to let us stay aboard and go partying with them for the weekend. So, we were Canadian military, travelling to a Canadian military ship, but not to work, and the ship would be our hotel? I think she finally let us through because she was exhausted trying to make sense of it and didn't think we were a threat.

Most of the time the CBP/ICE folks give A LOT of leeway to folks in the CAF.

I was flying out of Ottawa to Florida with my eldest son (who lived in Calgary with his mother at the time), circa 2002, he was 5, and I didn't have a letter from my ex (let alone the notarized letter they want) to allow for travel out of the country. The agent had been a Marine, and decided I would be in more trouble if I wasn't back but the time my leave pass ended, than I would be if I was kidnapping my son, so he let us go.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I know when we went down to the USMC MWTC we had three guys who had DUI's, that are generally a no-go for the US, and they had no issues. We didn't bring passports either. In fact while in the CAF, I came down here probably 10x times, and never had a passport (one time it was just 4 guys on a Herc flight - and I know there were no passports as I was the senior guy for the 4, and had the NTO paperwork.

Of course that was from the 80's to the early 2000's which probably goes to the NTO's.

I know guys who have come down for stuff here recently and they have had passports.

In the 80s to early 2000s Canadian citizens didn't need a passport to cross the border to the USA (or Mexico). You only needed to show proof of citizenship, usually a birth certificate but in many instances they just took your word of place of birth as long as you had a Canadian drivers license. But that was for those visiting as "tourists". If your purpose was business, they could be more strict as to proper documentation and meeting specific visa requirements.

The first time I crossed into the USA (as a long haired civvy puke) on my way to a rock festival, I didn't have a passport - no problem. Even the time I re-entered from Mexico, having left my passport and driver's license back at Fort Sam, they didn't question (much) my military ID; but at the time I was in the company of several other captains (US Army and most inebriated). The CBP agent that evening probably spent less time questioning us than the agent several months previously when I entered the US on my way to San Antonio; he wanted to see my "travel orders". I didn't have a Canadian issued NTO, but did have "Invitational Travel Orders (ITO)" issued by the Defence Attache at the US Embassy in Ottawa.

In the "old days" (before passports were needed by everyone), the only time that I recall specifically being informed of a requirement to have a passport even though we were travelling on duty and in a military aircraft was when I did the airmedevac course. Our flying phase was from Trenton to Kelly AFB (San Antonio TX), where we then flew out of for the rest of the week. Though the regular flight crew had green passports, us students only had to have our personal blue passports. When (years later) as the Hosp AdmO of an Air Comd base that had an airevac mission, I held the green passports of those qualified as medical flight crew in my safe.

 

[PuckChaser]

Any NTO I've seen looks like you made it at home on your printer. Not having troops carrying green passports while on official business is lazy admin and will eventually result in someone being nabbed and accused of espionage.

 

[Haggis]

Any NTO I've seen looks like you made it at home on your printer. Not having troops carrying green passports while on official business is lazy admin and will eventually result in someone being nabbed and accused of espionage.

A passport (blue, green or red) is the only true universally accepted proof of citizenship. Anyone who gets bounced or, worse, detained at an international border, NATO or otherwise, because "I'm on military business and I only have to show you my NTO and ID card" deserves it. As a military member you enjoy no special immigration status when attempting to enter another country or coming into Canada.

 

[QV]

A passport (blue, green or red) is the only true universally accepted proof of citizenship. Anyone who gets bounced or, worse, detained at an international border, NATO or otherwise, because "I'm on military business and I only have to show you my NTO and ID card" deserves it. As a military member you enjoy no special immigration status when attempting to enter another country or coming into Canada.

Except when at one time this was the agreed method of entry/exit between NATO countries for military on travel orders.

"special immigration status" ... military temporarily visiting for business reasons is not "immigration".

 

[Blackadder1916]

A passport (blue, green or red) is the only true universally accepted proof of citizenship. Anyone who gets bounced or, worse, detained at an international border, NATO or otherwise, because "I'm on military business and I only have to show you my NTO and ID card" deserves it. As a military member you enjoy no special immigration status when attempting to enter another country or coming into Canada.

Actually you do.

Visas for Employees of International Organizations and NATO

travel.state.gov

Passport and Visa Exemptions for NATO Forces - Many armed forces personnel are exempt from passport and visa requirements if they are:

• Attached to NATO Allied Headquarters in the United States and are traveling on official business; or
• Entering the United States under the NATO Status of Forces Agreement.

When traveling in visa exempt status, such personnel generally enter the United States by military aircraft or naval vessel. You must present your official military identification card and NATO travel orders.

And from the SOFA (the agreement not the VP's former paramour)

QR&O: Volume IV - Appendix 2.4 Agreement between the Parties to the North Atlantic Treaty regarding the Status of their Forces - Canada.ca

Queen's Regulations and Orders - QR&O - Volume IV - Appendix 2.4 Agreement between the Parties to the North Atlantic Treaty regarding the Status of their Forces

www.canada.ca

ARTICLE III

1. On the conditions specified in paragraph 2 of this Article and subject
to compliance with the formalities established by the receiving State
relating to entry and departure of a force or the members thereof, such
members shall be exempt from passport and visa regulations and immigration
inspection on entering or leaving the territory of a receiving State. They
shall also be exempt from the regulations of the receiving State on the
registration and control of aliens, but shall not be considered as
acquiring any right to permanent residence or domicile in the territories
of the receiving State.

2. The following documents only will be required in respect of members of
a force. They must be presented on demand:
(a) personal identity card issued by the sending State showing names,
date of birth, rank and number (if any), service, and
photograph;
(b) individual or collective movement order, in the language of the
sending State and in the English and French languages, issued by
an appropriate agency of the sending State or of the North
Atlantic Treaty Organisation and certifying to the status of the
individual or group as a member or members of a force and to the
movement ordered. The receiving State may require a movement
order to be counter-signed by its appropriate representative.

 

[Haggis]

"special immigration status" ... military temporarily visiting for business reasons is not "immigration".

It is.

I used the term "immigration" because the IRPA and IRPR apply not only to those who wish to take up residence here (immigrants) but those who wish to visit Canada for personal, educational or business reasons, including military business. An example would be a foreign armed forces member posted to Canada. They would not need a work permit to conduct military business while in Canada as per IRPR 186(d) as they would be a business visitor. But that same person may need a work permit for a side hustle as per 187(1) as they would be entering the Canadian labour market.

 

[Haggis]

Actually you do.

Visas for Employees of International Organizations and NATO

travel.state.gov

And from the SOFA (the agreement not the VP's former paramour)

QR&O: Volume IV - Appendix 2.4 Agreement between the Parties to the North Atlantic Treaty regarding the Status of their Forces - Canada.ca

Queen's Regulations and Orders - QR&O - Volume IV - Appendix 2.4 Agreement between the Parties to the North Atlantic Treaty regarding the Status of their Forces

www.canada.ca

ARTICLE III

1. On the conditions specified in paragraph 2 of this Article and subject
to compliance with the formalities established by the receiving State
relating to entry and departure of a force or the members thereof, such
members shall be exempt from passport and visa regulations and immigration
inspection on entering or leaving the territory of a receiving State. They
shall also be exempt from the regulations of the receiving State on the
registration and control of aliens, but shall not be considered as
acquiring any right to permanent residence or domicile in the territories
of the receiving State.

2. The following documents only will be required in respect of members of
a force. They must be presented on demand:
(a) personal identity card issued by the sending State showing names,
date of birth, rank and number (if any), service, and
photograph;
(b) individual or collective movement order, in the language of the
sending State and in the English and French languages, issued by
an appropriate agency of the sending State or of the North
Atlantic Treaty Organisation and certifying to the status of the
individual or group as a member or members of a force and to the
movement ordered. The receiving State may require a movement
order to be counter-signed by its appropriate representative.

My reply was more general in nature, hence my use of the phrase "NATO or otherwise". I'm quite sure these days a CAF member with serious criminality might be denied entry to the US even if traveling "on orders". When I did these requests about 15 years ago we were required to submit a Visit Clearance Request to the receiving state which was a pre-screening of sorts for members prior . Is that still a thing?

 

[Blackadder1916]

My reply was more general in nature, hence my use of the phrase "NATO or otherwise". I'm quite sure these days a CAF member with serious criminality might be denied entry to the US even if traveling "on orders". When I did these requests about 15 years ago we were required to submit a Visit Clearance Request to the receiving state which was a pre-screening of sorts for members prior . Is that still a thing?

My experience with this was even way longer ago than your's, but I had to do the same thing, submit Visit Clearance Requests to CDLS(W) every time I went to the US. Depending on where I was going (and/or if it was going to be a frequent occurrence), I was also required to be "accredited" by the organization/agency I was visiting.

 

[alexbarnia]

Thanks all for the insight and replies. I honestly did not expect this much information or help. Its seriously refreshing that complete strangers are willing to give me advice and I truly appreciate it. The NTO is very interesting and I was not aware of the green passports which could help my situation. The NTO though seems more of a thing of the past sadly and I understand why in todays security environment, they tend to be more under scrutiny with coming back and forth between borders. I feel @brihard is correct on reaching out to recruiting as they would have the most experience answering but I think its just a gamble, just like me staying in the US - i'm just tired of dealing with it tbh. @Haggis The small misdemeanor posession charge would not make me inadmissable for the CAF thankfully - in some states here in the US, DACA and my record allows me to be a police officer believe it or not... I just dont know if the 10 year bar+small misdemeanor would completely bar me even with the 'green passport' and orders. I have always been interested in military service and would have done it here in the US if they allowed, i've just always had the pull towards military service, specifically infantry

 

[Kilted]

Every time I have had a NTO, I have had to use my passport as well.

I suppose an interesting situation would be in a member refused to get a blue passport, and then it would be up to the CAF to decide if whatever they were being sent OUTCAN for was worth going through the process of getting them a green passport.

 

[Halifax Tar]

NTOs don't seem to be very common anymore. I hadn't seen them used in years because it's extra admin and the default is to just "use your passport" but that's not always possible. The Navy doesn't even issue sailors Green Passports which surprised me, we all had Green Passports in the Army.

In the case of the soldier I am referring to. He always got let in with an NTO, even being on an ICE list.

Here is an example of an NTO:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://prhome.defense.gov/Portals/52/Documents/MRA_Docs/RI/MREP/NATOTvlOrder.doc%3Fver%3D2018-01-30-191827-550&ved=2ahUKEwj0z_P0uJKPAxWKAzQIHVIjKyQQFnoECB0QAQ&sqi=2&usg=AOvVaw2zMGSImlcci797KRIGjcBJ

NTOs are somewhat common on east coast RCN deployments.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

My reply was more general in nature, hence my use of the phrase "NATO or otherwise". I'm quite sure these days a CAF member with serious criminality might be denied entry to the US even if traveling "on orders". When I did these requests about 15 years ago we were required to submit a Visit Clearance Request to the receiving state which was a pre-screening of sorts for members prior . Is that still a thing?

Yes, you need to do a Visit Clearance Request. NTOs are valid travel documents though without a passport.

What OP is describing is not what one would consider a "crime of moral turpitude" which is the lingo the US uses to describe crimes that would barr entry to the United States.

Even that doesn't necessarily seem to be a show stopper for some, especially celebrities, who seem to be able to travel at will regardless of all the dumb shit they have done that us plebians would never get a reprieve for.

 

[Haggis]

Yes, you need to do a Visit Clearance Request. NTOs are valid travel documents though without a passport.

What OP is describing is not what one would consider a "crime of moral turpitude" which is the lingo the US uses to describe crimes that would barr entry to the United States.

Even that doesn't necessarily seem to be a show stopper for some, especially celebrities, who seem to be able to travel at will regardless of all the dumb shit they have done that us plebians would never get a reprieve for.

Not sure exactly how it works going into the US, but the regulations here allow for persons who would normally be inadmissible to be allowed entry under narrow exceptions by being issued a Temporary Resident Permit.

 

[brihard]

Every time I have had a NTO, I have had to use my passport as well.

I suppose an interesting situation would be in a member refused to get a blue passport, and then it would be up to the CAF to decide if whatever they were being sent OUTCAN for was worth going through the process of getting them a green passport.

I don’t remember the process for a green passport being much different from a blue one. It’s not onerous on the member, that’s for sure. I imagine the sheer volume of federal employees needing them makes it quite routine.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

A Visit Clearance Request is done through CDLS(W) and staffed through the Pentagon to get permission to gain access to a facility, site or location. That is the first step in the process of *official” visiting the US. It has nothing to do with the process of entering the US through a Port of Entry.

I have never personally seen a member of the Canadian Military ruled inadmissible to the US on an official trip, whether passports or NATO Travel Orders were used, regardless of their crime sheet (I personally have always travelled officially to the US on passport, just to make things faster, except on a couple of emergency occasions where we had to fastball enter the US to rescue broken aircraft. Those were always solved successfully by a phone call ahead to US CBP to explain the situation. Usually they pre-cleared us with reasonable conditions like, don’t leave the airport ramp unless we called them again).

I have seen at least one Canadian Military member ejected from the US for committing an offence in the US. In the one case I am most familiar with, we released that person almost immediately after they got back to Canada, so it never got tested what would happen if they tried to go back to the US, officially.

 

[Haggis]

I have seen at least one Canadian Military member ejected from the US for committing an offence in the US. In the one case I am most familiar with, we released that person almost immediately after they got back to Canada, so it never got tested what would happen if they tried to go back to the US, officially.

Do you know if the member you speak of ever returned to the US to deal with the matter? If so, what was the outcome?

Years ago (mid-1990's I'm going to guess) one of my soldiers who was a Canadian Permanent Resident was denied entry to the US for an exercise. We were informed prior to departure from Canada based on information contained in the submitted Visit Clearance Request. The soldier stayed behind and eventually voluntarily released.