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Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

Canada having a presence in the arctic archipelago is an important part of continental defense. The AOP's give the RCN a real role to play, in what is a all of government responsibility. It is far better to be proactive in showing our commitment, than having to deal with a physical challenge to the territory. Canada's lack of action in much of the area, weakens our claims. A good example of this is now playing out in the conflict between the Philippines and China. The Philippines mostly used the legal claim to it's territory as a defense, which it is now struggling to hold and get back from China.
A AOPS sailing the region and putting parties ashore, research, patrolling, exercising with the locals is cheaper in the long run, than a actual conflict over the region. The rule of law is only valuable when all parties respect it and China uses and discards it at their whim.
It needs to be weighed against the actual threat, and the cost/benefit of putting ships and personnel up there.

We have presence up in the arctic via the Rangers, and the other CAF elements operating in the North all year. Sending a few ships up on occasion is a good use of resources, but sending AOPVs up there just to be there is a waste of resources. We have a limited number of sailors, and limited amount of resources to use for getting ships to sea. We need to manage those resources wisely, and remember that we are a global trade nation, so we have obligations all over the planet.

The arctic is important, but it isn't everything. We have other obligations, and other interests.
 
Tell me you don't know what my job is, without telling me you know absolutely nothing. That you feel personally attacked enough to go after my occupation kind of lends credence to my position. MCDVS did good work, but they did what they could, when they could. Sending small cheap ships up north was a cheap and easy way to wave the flag... That's not a reflection of the quality of your service, but it is a reflection of what the MCDVs were capable of.

I actually speak with sailors, sailors who don't work for me, so don't need to lie to me because they are afraid of what their PAR will say...

Lastly, I have been up north, in our actual permeant presence in the north, CFS Alert. The place that does more for our arctic sovereignty than all MCDV taskings to the arctic combined. I get that the north is important, I just don't want to see us waste time and effort sailing in circles up there so that some least coaster can feel special about his time on the MCDVs.
You’re right that the MCDVs were limited ships – nobody’s pretending they were icebreakers or frigates. But “cheap flag-waving” devalues what they actually did. They weren’t just driving in circles. They carried out fisheries patrols, sovereignty exercises, intel collection, and community engagement that bigger ships couldn’t always fit into their schedule or draft. We worked extensively with OGD helping them with tasks they couldn't carry out as we were often a cheap alternative and able to get into areas where larger ships couldn't. We even hold the record for the farthest north any RCN ship has gone — a record that only this summer the AOPS will finally break. That’s why they were consistently tasked north for nearly two decades – because the work was real, not pretend.

In fact, those “cheap ships” carried out some highly valuable tasks: hydrographic work with the fitted multibeam echo sounder, laying hydrophones in the Northwest Passage for an experimental DRDC listening post, supporting the search for HMS Terror, and even dropping off Rangers for northern patrols and many others. They were actually ideal for this work because of their ability to carry different payloads and modular mission fits, which gave them a flexibility larger combatants didn’t have. If you think all of that is just flag waving, man, there’s something wrong with your thinking.

CFS Alert is important, no argument there. But to say that a static station does “more for Arctic sovereignty” than naval patrols isn’t quite right. One is a permanent footprint, the other is mobility and presence across thousands of nautical miles of coastline. Canada maintains both precisely because they complement each other. You don’t establish sovereignty by having a single outpost – you do it by showing up across the whole region, which is what those deployments provided.

And as for sailors’ opinions, let’s be honest: trying to counter the narrative by claiming people only spoke to me because I wrote their PARs is weak. Yes, I’ve spent a lot of time in the Arctic, but I also sail in Harry DeWolf-class ships for readiness training, and I talk to many sailors who don’t work for me — and they’ve painted a narrative that’s contrary to what you’re saying. Yes, I made a swipe at your trade, but only after you took a swipe at my sailing career and tried to devalue it with a tired BS story about coke use 20 years ago. You can do better than that, Chief.

Dismissing that as “least coaster ego” misses the bigger picture: the Navy sent those ships for a reason, and they delivered on the missions assigned. If it was truly wasted effort, Ottawa would have stopped sending them years ago.
 
It needs to be weighed against the actual threat, and the cost/benefit of putting ships and personnel up there.

We have presence up in the arctic via the Rangers, and the other CAF elements operating in the North all year. Sending a few ships up on occasion is a good use of resources, but sending AOPVs up there just to be there is a waste of resources. We have a limited number of sailors, and limited amount of resources to use for getting ships to sea. We need to manage those resources wisely, and remember that we are a global trade nation, so we have obligations all over the planet.

The arctic is important, but it isn't everything. We have other obligations, and other interests.
Furniture, I don’t think anyone’s arguing the Arctic is “everything” or that we should park the whole fleet up there year-round. Nobody’s saying we should have a naval presence 12 months a year , the ice and conditions don’t allow it. What we are saying is that for the four months the region is open and accessible, we need to use that window. Saying AOPS deployments are just a waste of resources doesn’t square with the facts.

First off, risk isn’t just about “threats.” Marine traffic in the Arctic keeps trending up year after year. With that comes higher chances of accidents, SAR calls, and environmental response. That’s why Canada made NORDREG mandatory back in 2010. The regulations only mean something if we actually show up at sea to enforce them , you can’t do that from CFS Alert. The Coast Guard has ships up north every season too, but their mandate is safety and service, not defence. They work alongside the Navy, not instead of it.

Second, Rangers are indispensable, but they’re not a substitute for ships. They provide eyes, presence, and resiliency in northern communities, but they don’t do boardings, fisheries enforcement, hydrography, or search and rescue at sea. That’s why Op NANOOK brings them together with the RCN, RCAF, and CCG , because sovereignty isn’t a one-dimensional job.

Third, AOPS were built for exactly this. They carry small crews (about 65, with room for ~85), have 6,800 nm range, and the mission bay for containers, survey gear, UAVs, boats, or landing craft. That makes them the efficient option for northern patrols, instead of tying up frigates with triple the crew and cost.

Fourth, it’s not just “showing the flag.” Northern deployments have supported hydrographic mapping with multibeam sonar, laid hydrophones in the Northwest Passage for DRDC’s Northern Watch, assisted in the HMS Terror search, and delivered Rangers for long-range patrols. That’s real work that pays dividends in science, surveillance, and sovereignty.

Finally, the support is already being built. Nanisivik’s seasonal refueling capacity is coming online precisely so these ships can loiter longer up north without burning resources shuttling back south. And let’s not forget before the AOPS, it was the Kingston-class that carried the burden of those Arctic deployments. They did the fisheries patrols, route surveys, community engagements, and experimental science tasks for nearly two decades. AOPS aren’t starting something new; they’re building on what the Kingston's already proved was both useful and achievable.

So yes, Canada’s a global trading nation with obligations abroad but that doesn’t make the Arctic optional. The Coast Guard, Rangers, and northern stations are all key pieces, but none of them can replace the role of a naval ship at sea. Seasonal AOPS patrols are how you tie it all together: cost-effective presence at home, while keeping the high-end fleet for global tasks. Calling that a waste is selling short both the mission and the sailors doing it.
 
Furniture, I don’t think anyone’s arguing the Arctic is “everything” or that we should park the whole fleet up there year-round. Nobody’s saying we should have a naval presence 12 months a year , the ice and conditions don’t allow it. What we are saying is that for the four months the region is open and accessible, we need to use that window. Saying AOPS deployments are just a waste of resources doesn’t square with the facts.

First off, risk isn’t just about “threats.” Marine traffic in the Arctic keeps trending up year after year. With that comes higher chances of accidents, SAR calls, and environmental response. That’s why Canada made NORDREG mandatory back in 2010. The regulations only mean something if we actually show up at sea to enforce them , you can’t do that from CFS Alert. The Coast Guard has ships up north every season too, but their mandate is safety and service, not defence. They work alongside the Navy, not instead of it.

Second, Rangers are indispensable, but they’re not a substitute for ships. They provide eyes, presence, and resiliency in northern communities, but they don’t do boardings, fisheries enforcement, hydrography, or search and rescue at sea. That’s why Op NANOOK brings them together with the RCN, RCAF, and CCG , because sovereignty isn’t a one-dimensional job.

Third, AOPS were built for exactly this. They carry small crews (about 65, with room for ~85), have 6,800 nm range, and the mission bay for containers, survey gear, UAVs, boats, or landing craft. That makes them the efficient option for northern patrols, instead of tying up frigates with triple the crew and cost.

Fourth, it’s not just “showing the flag.” Northern deployments have supported hydrographic mapping with multibeam sonar, laid hydrophones in the Northwest Passage for DRDC’s Northern Watch, assisted in the HMS Terror search, and delivered Rangers for long-range patrols. That’s real work that pays dividends in science, surveillance, and sovereignty.

Finally, the support is already being built. Nanisivik’s seasonal refueling capacity is coming online precisely so these ships can loiter longer up north without burning resources shuttling back south. And let’s not forget before the AOPS, it was the Kingston-class that carried the burden of those Arctic deployments. They did the fisheries patrols, route surveys, community engagements, and experimental science tasks for nearly two decades. AOPS aren’t starting something new; they’re building on what the Kingston's already proved was both useful and achievable.

So yes, Canada’s a global trading nation with obligations abroad but that doesn’t make the Arctic optional. The Coast Guard, Rangers, and northern stations are all key pieces, but none of them can replace the role of a naval ship at sea. Seasonal AOPS patrols are how you tie it all together: cost-effective presence at home, while keeping the high-end fleet for global tasks. Calling that a waste is selling short both the mission and the sailors doing it.
I hope Nanisivik gets scrapped and we build 2 facilities, west and east sides of the Arctic, in existing habitable settlements where the crews can go ashore for a few days of R&R before continuing on with their missions. A place where fresh produce and such can be air transported out to for the crews.
 
I hope Nanisivik gets scrapped and we build 2 facilities, west and east sides of the Arctic, in existing habitable settlements where the crews can go ashore for a few days of R&R before continuing on with their missions. A place where fresh produce and such can be air transported out to for the crews.
First, Nanisivik hasn’t been easy to bring online and hasn't pumped a liter of fuel yet and the actual season of operation has been reduced to mere weeks. The delays and scaling-down weren’t from poor planning, they were from the brute realities of building in the Arctic, permafrost, short work seasons, Covid, weather windows, and the insane cost of flying everything in. Most of these are the same hurdles would cripple any “new” east and west depots, and probably worse, since Nanisivik at least benefited from existing mine infrastructure. Saying “just build two more” is doubling down on the same logistical nightmare.

That said, Nanisivik is not meant to be the only option. There’s flexibility already built into how the RCN and CCG operate:
  • The old Nanisivik airfield could be rehabilitated, and Arctic Bay’s modern airport is only a road trip away, meaning fresh food, parts, crew and spares can flow in.
  • Crews wanting R&R can either head into Arctic Bay for engagement, stay in a portable “camp” set up at Nanisivik, or simply remain onboard remember, the Harry DeWolf-class are much more comfortable than your average RCN ship.
  • Port visits at places like Nuuk, Thule, and Iqaluit can also be leveraged for airlift, resupply, crew swaps, and even fuel, these are already functioning hubs with existing logistics pipelines. It just takes a bit of imagination and coordination to tie them into our operations.
The point is, Nanisivik will provide when in operation a strategic refuelling node in the right spot, and when combined with nearby ports of call and community airports, gives more than enough flexibility for the 4–5 months a year RCN and CCG ships actually operate in the high Arctic. Building redundant depots in every corner of the Arctic isn’t realistic currently. I would agree that something should be built in the western Arctic to support the western AOPV deployments there but would really need to find the right spot leveraging already in place infrastructure and it would take a significant amount of time and effort.
 
I would agree that something should be built in the western Arctic to support the western AOPV deployments there but would really need to find the right spot leveraging already in place infrastructure and it would take a significant amount of time and effort.

I think I may have heard of a place before, .... wait .... Ah! Yes! Tuktuyaktuk.

There may even be some activities crew can do on R&R: https://www.iti.gov.nt.ca/sites/iti/files/tuktoyaktuk_brochure.pdf

P.S.: Shouldn't all this be moved over to the AOPV thread, or the Arctic one?
 
Are you assuming the MCDV's are big enough to have bar facilities with foot rails? I think you may not have seen how the Wardroom and messes are set up. :)

If you don't have anything in particular in mind, may I suggest you ask for the hold bars in front of the various electrical component cabinets in the main switch room!
I was thinking any kind of piping or railing.
 
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Oil terminal works for AOPV's

Harbor Depth and Access​

Tuktoyaktuk Harbour sits at 69°27′0.00″N 133°0′0.00″W on the Beaufort Sea.

You can find two main docking areas: the cargo pier (3.4m to 4.6m deep) and the oil terminal (4.9m to 6.1m deep).

The harbour lies next to Kugmallit Bay, with Tuktoyaktuk Island offering protection from rough weather.

Many large ice breaking oil rig support vessels have operated from there, including the Terry Fox. Besides, we are talking about improving existing facilities. The oil terminal can be extended by about 300 feet towards the deeper harbour fairly easily. And there is now road access to deliver construction material.
 
Oil terminal works for AOPV's

Harbor Depth and Access​

Tuktoyaktuk Harbour sits at 69°27′0.00″N 133°0′0.00″W on the Beaufort Sea.

You can find two main docking areas: the cargo pier (3.4m to 4.6m deep) and the oil terminal (4.9m to 6.1m deep).

The harbour lies next to Kugmallit Bay, with Tuktoyaktuk Island offering protection from rough weather.

Many large ice breaking oil rig support vessels have operated from there, including the Terry Fox. Besides, we are talking about improving existing facilities. The oil terminal can be extended by about 300 feet towards the deeper harbour fairly easily. And there is now road access to deliver construction material.
We crew changed out of the Pearkes at Kugluktuk (Coppermine)
 
How does a request get submitted? My mess has been wanting some sort of foot rail for the bar for a while.
Officially I think they were coming in through DHH, but we also got internal requests through the DWAN for the accountable items (ship crests, bulkhead number plaques etc) for the 280/tankers.

As someone mentioned, they don't have bar rails in their mess, and can't think of anything in particular that is brass/bronze that would make a good bar rail, but you can always ask.

Once the ships were decommissioned, there were a number of things that grew legs before it got to the breaker yard, but a lot of it was things that wasn't actually supposed to be onboard anyway (like fitted wood cabinets). Otherwise it would have just gone in the garbage anyway (unless someone at the breaker yard took time to remove it whole I guess). I think there may be wooden rails along the bridge wing that would be suitably weathered, but you may need to know a guy to get someone to get them off whole. Not sure where your mess is, but maybe if your PMC reached out to the equivalent PMC in Halifax may be an efficient way to figure out if anything like that makes sense, as well as who the actual POCs are.

Doubt there will be much difference in the contracts, but broad strokes we pay them to scrap the vessel and demilitarize anything that requires it, after stripping off the crypto/comms/weapons cabinets etc that needs to be before turnover, and then they give us a bit of an offset on the scrap weight, so usually load it up with old spares as well to kill 2 birds. So we paid a fair bit of money for the portions that were taken off to be taken off in one piece, cleaned for any enviro hazards, and generally sent somewhere for proper prepping before they got turned into big lawn ornaments, but the wooden items in particular are just garbage if no one takes the time to take them off so something like that may work.
 
Oil terminal works for AOPV's

Harbor Depth and Access​

Tuktoyaktuk Harbour sits at 69°27′0.00″N 133°0′0.00″W on the Beaufort Sea.

You can find two main docking areas: the cargo pier (3.4m to 4.6m deep) and the oil terminal (4.9m to 6.1m deep).

The harbour lies next to Kugmallit Bay, with Tuktoyaktuk Island offering protection from rough weather.

Many large ice breaking oil rig support vessels have operated from there, including the Terry Fox. Besides, we are talking about improving existing facilities. The oil terminal can be extended by about 300 feet towards the deeper harbour fairly easily. And there is now road access to deliver construction material.
I have an acquaintance that is a ex RCN logistics officer who now works for NATO. Part of this job is to go to ports and prepare reports on the facilities, fuel availability etc and how they can support NATO. Probably to update their database. The last two years he's been to many northern communities. This year he's primarily been in the Western Arctic and his last port was Dutch Harbour. See several pictures he took of HMCS Max Bernays who was getting fuel there last week while he was there. He was also in Tuktoyaktuk to check out what's available. What he said is that it's NATO's position that the area is too shallow for warships and what is recommended is to fuel in one of the close bays by fueling barge. There is a very good reason why AOPV's haven't in there with their deep draft. While the public available information state the max depth, generally the RCN won't take the risk. So if this was to become a RCN station, the area would need to be dredged.538316721_10163064590395622_4246163521821102955_n.jpg
537359099_10163064588810622_9017110833465324127_n.jpg
 
Your logistic friend has a nice cushy NATO job, but they look at these facilities from a logistics point of view. NATO may have a position and have recommendations for the harbour (why comes to mind because, which NATO nation's warships - other than our own - would want to go to the Tuk is beyond me), but NATO does not dictate to Canadian warships where, when and how they should operate in Canada. The decision to take a Canadian warship in Tuk, whether alongside or at anchor, and navigate the passage thereto rests solely on the shoulders of the Canadian warship's Captain, as assisted by the ship's NavO.

Moreover, we are talking - I remind people again - of Western Arctic facilities that could be improved to offer AOPV support. Tuktuyaktuk is a candidate. Whether NATO doesn't trust the charts is their problem. Arctic expedition cruise ships do, and if the RCN doesn't, it can always send someone to survey the area - perhaps a good little last job for one of the MCDV being retained for a few years still.

PS For those who don't know, Dutch Harbour is a US port situated on the Aleutians, about two thirds of the way from mainland Alaska, going towards Japan. It sit near the 54th parallel, so is both about 720 nautical miles from the Arctic circle and of the entrance of the Bering Strait. Hardly qualifies as a "Western Arctic" port to me.
 
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Your logistic friend has a nice cushy NATO job, but they look at these facilities from a logistics point of view. NATO may have a position and have recommendations for the harbour (why comes to mind because, which NATO nation's warships - other than our own - would want to go to the Tuk is beyond me), but NATO does not dictate to Canadian warships where, when and how they should operate in Canada. The decision to take a Canadian warship in Tuk, whether alongside or at anchor, and navigate the passage thereto rests solely on the shoulders of the Canadian warship's Captain, as assisted by the ship's NavO.

Moreover, we are talking - I remind people again - of Western Arctic facilities that could be improved to offer AOPV support. Tuktuyaktuk is a candidate. Whether NATO doesn't trust the charts is their problem. Arctic expedition cruise ships do, and if the RCN doesn't, it can always send someone to survey the area - perhaps a good little last job for one of the MCDV being retained for a few years still.

PS For those who don't know, Dutch Harbour is a US port situated on the Aleutians, about two thirds of the way from mainland Alaska, going towards Japan. It sit near the 54th parallel, so is both about 720 nautical miles from the Arctic circle and of the entrance of the Bering Strait. Hardly qualifies as a "Western Arctic" port to me.
Re Tuk, maybe we can consult some old Soviet charts?


I'm joking!
 
Your logistic friend has a nice cushy NATO job, but they look at these facilities from a logistics point of view. NATO may have a position and have recommendations for the harbour (why comes to mind because, which NATO nation's warships - other than our own - would want to go to the Tuk is beyond me), but NATO does not dictate to Canadian warships where, when and how they should operate in Canada. The decision to take a Canadian warship in Tuk, whether alongside or at anchor, and navigate the passage thereto rests solely on the shoulders of the Canadian warship's Captain, as assisted by the ship's NavO.

Moreover, we are talking - I remind people again - of Western Arctic facilities that could be improved to offer AOPV support. Tuktuyaktuk is a candidate. Whether NATO doesn't trust the charts is their problem. Arctic expedition cruise ships do, and if the RCN doesn't, it can always send someone to survey the area - perhaps a good little last job for one of the MCDV being retained for a few years still.

PS For those who don't know, Dutch Harbour is a US port situated on the Aleutians, about two thirds of the way from mainland Alaska, going towards Japan. It sit near the 54th parallel, so is both about 720 nautical miles from the Arctic circle and of the entrance of the Bering Strait. Hardly qualifies as a "Western Arctic" port to me.
I figured you would say something to that effect and so I also confirmed this at MARLANT through my OPS O, we don't send large warships there and we sure as hell don't send a AOPS there. We sent 2 Kingston Class there in 2015 to look at the feasibility of having a refueling depot like the one in the eastern arctic and we sent two in 2017 including HMCS Edmonton. Due to lack of docking space and expansive shallows they stayed about 13 miles offshore at anchor where they were supported by barges. See picture of Edmonton getting supplies and fuel from a supply ship off shore. As I said it would have to be dredged and even that may be a non starter. Thank you pointing out the where Dutch Harbour is and Western Arctic is, I thought the photos would be a cool thing to post.
Here is a article about the Kingston class being in Tuk and the challenges of warships bigger than the Kingston Class going there in the future.
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