Religion in Schools (split fm Islamic Terrorism)

[CadNav]

If you you think Catholic schools are bad, my friend went to mormon school (well, it's not officially mormon but everyone in Cardston is mormon) and it didn't sound like the provincial curriculum is being upheld. All the science is messed up and most of the stuff they learn is from the Mormon book. I don't want to bash the religion, but the government's perspective that all people are equal conflicts with Mormonism which says that indigenous and coloureds are "evil."

At least most catholic schools I know uphold standards; in New Brunswick the education scores are worst than the US average... I personally would rather go to catholic school if it was well funded and had good staff

 

[Kirkhill]

My kids have gone through the Catholic school board system in two provinces. When they started in Alberta, (2012ish) the school board accepted all faiths at the grade school level. Parents had to acknowledge that the curriculum was faith based (which really only meant that they talked about God, and started the day with prayers). Specific activities directly linked to Catholic rights, (mass, baptism/communion preparation, etc) were optional for non-Catholic students if the parents signed a form. Those kids would have alternate activities for those times. To enter the Catholic High school, children were considered old enough to make a choice about their faith, and had to choose to undergo the appropriate religious rights in order to be accepted to the school.

When we moved back to Ontario in 2015, we were surprised by the strictness to get accepted to the Catholic schools. At least one parent had to have been raised in the Catholic faith, and in theory a practicing Catholic. We had to agree to have the children baptized, go through confirmation, and partake in first communion. There were also no exemptions to participate Catholic specific activities, all children were expected to attend mass and religious rights preparation classes. There was also a mandatory religious class all through grade school, middle school, and even one semester each year of high school. Both systems also required uniforms for students in middle and high school. This was the same in both cities we lived in.

I will agree that the quality of the education available in all three cities they went to school was better in the Catholic schools. Smaller class sizes (20-30 students), better student-teacher rations, and I believe more access to IT, career counselling, special needs, non-sports related clubs, etc. The biggest drawback was due to the smaller student populations, the sports teams had difficulty competing in team sports.

For me personally, I was able to overlook the religious aspects of the schooling, which did have some benefits in making them better people and understanding different cultures.

I'm also not saying that public schools or charter schools are bad. Just in the areas I have lived, the Catholic system offered more. If I were to do it all again, I might consider sending them to French schools, at least until high school, to give them even more of a leg up.

I married a Catholic. She raised our children as Catholics but they attended public schools in Alberta, BC and Indiana and they all attend church irregularly.

I say all of that to give me some cover for what I am about to say next. I hope not to cause offence.

I have no problem with the rites of the Church and its beliefs. Beyond one.

Its belief in hierarchy.

Its top down flow. The role of the Pope. The control of information and the restrictions on thought, conscience and assembly.

My biggest hurdle is the continuation of the Librum Prohibitorum index that continued in existence from Gutenberg's day to 1964.

The elimination of that list was, in my opinion, the great triumph of the Protestant Reformation. It freed everybody to think and act for themselves.

My great fear, as Protestantism fades as a force when people become less attached to congregations and more inclined to individual pursuits, and as we struggle with new forms of censorship to protect new flocks from disinformation and misinformation and improper interpretations of the truth, that we are losing the impetus that propelled the Enlightenment and the modern world.

Islamists are not a world apart from the pre Vatican 2 Roman Church in their opinions on blasphemy and modesty and settled truths.

Again, I apologise to my friends here that I know are Catholics, some of whom are very devout.

 

[IKnowNothing]

If you can figure out how to have a tolerant society and

have everybody believe the same thing you might be on to something.

A doesn't require B at 100%. Maybe 20% or 30% - a foundation of compatible values- while rejecting the incompatible. I think we were largely there in the late 00's early 10's. At least my lived experience was.

Tolerance of differing theory/ spirituality is easy - it only comes up when you talk about it, and only requires not being a jerk.

Tolerance of differing customs is harder. It by nature requires varying degrees of inconvenience, adjusting actions and systems to account for round behaviors in square expectations.

Where things break is the attempted imposition of beliefs and values that extend beyond the core, or even run contrary to it. Those that insist that it is not enough that they live by their own beliefs- but that everyone must.

Islamists are not a world apart from the pre Vatican 2 Roman Church in their opinions on blasphemy and modesty and settled truths.

Ditto Southern Baptists, Evangelical Leftists. etc. Any fundamentalist/absolutist that feels privileged to mistake their granular cultural mores / doctrine for morality and try to force them on society.

 

[YZT580]

A doesn't require B at 100%. Maybe 20% or 30% - a foundation of compatible values- while rejecting the incompatible. I think we were largely there in the late 00's early 10's. At least my lived experience was.

Tolerance of differing theory/ spirituality is easy - it only comes up when you talk about it, and only requires not being a jerk.

Tolerance of differing customs is harder. It by nature requires varying degrees of inconvenience, adjusting actions and systems to account for round behaviors in square expectations.

Where things break is the attempted imposition of beliefs and values that extend beyond the core, or even run contrary to it. Those that insist that it is not enough that they live by their own beliefs- but that everyone must.

Ditto Southern Baptists, Evangelical Leftists. etc. Any fundamentalist/absolutist that feels privileged to mistake their granular cultural mores / doctrine for morality and try to force them on society.

including those who say they believe nothing at all and insist that the rest of us drop our beliefs and favour theirs

 

[IKnowNothing]

including those who say they believe nothing at all and insist that the rest of us drop our beliefs and favour theirs

I explicitly did include Evangelical Leftists.

But please give a specific example - a core spiritual belief and/or fundamental aspect of your morality that you're being forced to drop.

Keep in mind, neither of those is the same as being told you don't get to impose specific aspects of your religion onto others.

 

[Genetk44]

Did anybody besides myself go through the Protestant School Board of Montreal’s system or the Montreal Catholic system?

 

[dapaterson]

Did anybody besides myself go through the Protestant School Board of Montreal’s system or the Montreal Catholic system?

PSBGM for elementary school, then pivoted to a semi-private school.

 

[YZT580]

I explicitly did include Evangelical Leftists.

But please give a specific example - a core spiritual belief and/or fundamental aspect of your morality that you're being forced to drop.

Keep in mind, neither of those is the same as being told you don't get to impose specific aspects of your religion onto others.

not me per se but my children were denied the option of learning about the opposing views as to the origins of the world: creation or evolution in spite of the fact that there is no "scientific" proof for either. My grandchildren have been told that there are what? 12 genders, I have lost count. My greatgrandchildren are being told that they are thieves and pirates who stole the land in which they were born in spite of the fact that at the time it was settled there weren't even Indigenous trails through the area that they know of. As for morality I try and avoid those issues in discussion simply because they cause friction without solution but to point out one: the legalisation of abortion as a form of birth control. That is a strong moral issue that we have been forced to swallow and it is getting worse because, not content with making it legal, the death squad is trying to ensure that regardless of personal faith, a doctor and nurses must be compelled to comply which incidentally is "imposing specific aspects of your (assuming you agree with the concept of abortion if not, I apologise) religion or lack of it on others". Which is what you are accusing the evangelical leftists of doing.

 

[Genetk44]

PSBGM for elementary school, then pivoted to a semi-private school.

LCC ?

 

[Genetk44]

PSBGM for elementary school, then pivoted to a semi-private school.

Do you recall much in the way of religious instruction in school at PSBGM?

 

[dapaterson]

Do you recall much in the way of religious instruction in school at PSBGM?

Given that it's multiple decades since I left the PSBGM, my memory of specific curriculum items is somewhat vague.

 

[IKnowNothing]

not me per se but my children were denied the option of learning about the opposing views as to the origins of the world: creation or evolution

You weren't allowed to teach them evolution at home? At church? At Sunday School? They've been banned from learning it and believing it?

My grandchildren have been told that there are what? 12 genders, I have lost count. My greatgrandchildren are being told that they are thieves and pirates who stole the land in which they were born in spite of the fact that at the time it was settled there weren't even Indigenous trails through the area that they know of.

Ranges from exasperating an exasperating call for the accommodation of the beliefs of others at one end of the spectrum, to Evangelical Leftists trying to impose their religion on others, depending how militant they are and how restrictive they are trying to be of dissent.

is trying to ensure that regardless of personal faith, a doctor and nurses must be compelled to comply which incidentally is "imposing specific aspects of your religion or lack of it on others".

This is by far the strongest example- but even it is complicated by professional standards re: care of the mother

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Given that it's multiple decades since I left the PSBGM, my memory of specific curriculum items is somewhat vague.

Or did the nuns traumatise you that much your brain is protecting you from remembering?

 

[dapaterson]

Or did the nuns traumatise you that much your brain is protecting you from remembering?

PSBGM is the Protestant School Board, so no nuns.

Highschool was Jesuits, so again, no nuns.

 

[YZT580]

You weren't allowed to teach them evolution at home? At church? At Sunday School? They've been banned from learning it and believing it?

Ranges from exasperating an exasperating call for the accommodation of the beliefs of others at one end of the spectrum, to Evangelical Leftists trying to impose their religion on others, depending how militant they are and how restrictive they are trying to be of dissent.


This is by far the strongest example- but even it is complicated by professional standards re: care of the mother

You are trolling. You asked for examples where we were hampered or restricted in our beliefs and I gave you 3. So I responded to your request. It is evident that you feel that the evangelist side is trying to dominate our society whilst in fact it is you who insist that only your way is the right way. Almost all of the arguments on moral issues arise when an individual or a small group pick a target to condemn and then bring the issue to court. It is very seldom the evangelical leftist who raises any issue. They simply respond. Case in point being the deal with the wedding cake down south where a gay couple took a baker to court. Other cases have involved people suing churches because they dared put a nativity scene out front. I seem to recall that Boston didn't get their free Christmas tree from Nova Scotia this year because they insisted on a holiday tree and the farm informed them that they didn't grow Holiday trees on Christmas ones. Whether true or not I can't confirm but the story does illustrate my point. It is you who are trying to force your views on others. With regards to the school issue, children are compelled to believe their teachers: after all they are adults so teaching becomes a conflict rather than a collaborative effort. Being taught in school re: evolution and then at home re: creation results in them being mocked at school for defending "my dad said..." It is a no win scenario for a parent. In a neutral teaching environment the situation would never arise because there are two unprovable theories and science arguments can be used to support both so teachers should be presenting both to their students as does happen in some individual schools.

 

[Genetk44]

Given that it's multiple decades since I left the PSBGM, my memory of specific curriculum items is somewhat vague.

Well I was in during the 60’s until ‘72……I recall almost zero religious instruction. Although in elementary school musoc class I remember learning Christmas carols …at Christmas.

 

[IKnowNothing]

@YZT580 - I think there's some confusion- I use "evangelical Leftist" in place of "woke". The opposite side of the coin to fundamentalist christians, Islamists etc.

If you feeling I'm trolling I apologize. What I'm trying to do is point out that having to tolerate others beliefs and not having your beliefs prioritized and catered to is not the same as "being forced to drop your beliefs"

Re- creationism. So should every religion's alternative to evolution be presented on equal footing, or just yours?