The vibe shift, end of "wokeness"?

[brihard]

Except Millenials are in their late 30s/early 40s and are now the ones doing the interviewing.

I!’s like a couple generations ahead of us have forgotten that we’re getting older too.

 

[Halifax Tar]

THE Millennial Job Interview​

Thats from 8 years ago.

@Humphrey Bogart

 

[Remius]

Thats from 8 years ago.

@Humphrey Bogart

And hasn’t changed much since. Bellyaching about Millenials is still a thing, I maintain that they are the most screwed over generation right now.

 

[Halifax Tar]

And hasn’t changed much since. Bellyaching about Millenials is still a thing, I maintain that they are the most screwed over generation right now.

I never said it wasn't.

Agreed. We have squandered our future on the generations in their twilight. Very short sighted.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Helen Andrews | Overcoming the Feminization of Culture | NatCon 5

Controversial? Oh hell yeah...

But the facial expressions on the guy behind the speaker are a good reason to watch this all the way through, if nothing else

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Meanwhile in the UK, people are turning the government tools against it

 

[brihard]

And hasn’t changed much since. Bellyaching about Millenials is still a thing, I maintain that they are the most screwed over generation right now.

I don’t know… I’m an older millennial; at least many/most of us were hitting the job market and building professional lives and finding homes a decade or two ago. Gen Z coming right up behind us have started hitting adulthood in the past decade, and economically speaking, as a generation, when we look at things like housing costs vs incomes, they’re pretty hooped. They make up the bulk of my classmates, and their experiences and perspectives when we talk life plans just hit different. My generation is already struggling with starting and growing families, and we have it comparatively easier.

 

[Furniture]

I don’t know… I’m an older millennial; at least many/most of us were hitting the job market and building professional lives and finding homes a decade or two ago. Gen Z coming right up behind us have started hitting adulthood in the past decade, and economically speaking, as a generation, when we look at things like housing costs vs incomes, they’re pretty hooped. They make up the bulk of my classmates, and their experiences and perspectives when we talk life plans just hit different. My generation is already struggling with starting and growing families, and we have it comparatively easier.

I suspect the type of millennial you are makes a difference. I was born in the early 80's in a rural area, so my experience is similar to yours/Gen X, but those born at the end of the generation likely are far more like the Gen Z than like us. I also suspect those are the millennials people are talking about when they complain about millennials, because people seem shocked when I tell them I'm a millennial, and it's been that way for more than a decade.

 

[IKnowNothing]

I suspect the type of millennial you are makes a difference. I was born in the early 80's in a rural area, so my experience is similar to yours/Gen X, but those born at the end of the generation likely are far more like the Gen Z than like us. I also suspect those are the millennials people are talking about when they complain about millennials, because people seem shocked when I tell them I'm a millennial, and it's been that way for more than a decade.

I don’t know… I’m an older millennial; at least many/most of us were hitting the job market and building professional lives and finding homes a decade or two ago. Gen Z coming right up behind us have started hitting adulthood in the past decade, and economically speaking, as a generation, when we look at things like housing costs vs incomes, they’re pretty hooped. They make up the bulk of my classmates, and their experiences and perspectives when we talk life plans just hit different. My generation is already struggling with starting and growing families, and we have it comparatively easier.

My observation is from my neck of rural SW Ontario is that the primary driver of current financial security (controlling for variables like generational wealth, extremely upper percentile incomes, etc) is the timing of entering the housing market, which is primarily driven by age, with secondary branch for having pursued university or any other form of early adult transience.

Breaksdown in to 3 main tranches-

• Entered Market Prior to 2017 - Barring major misfortune or mistake this group is fairly set (with appropriate spending/lifestyle decisions)
• Entered Market 2017-2019 - the run up started, the later in the period the worse the housing to income ratio, this tranche is largely stable but with tigher budgets
• Entered Market 2020 or later, or renting- to quote Brihard, largely hooped. A lot of housing insecurity, a mountain to climb to enter the market, and once in, largely house poor. Renting relationships extremely precarious leading to being locked into accommodations that might not suit desired stage of life.

 

[daftandbarmy]

My observation is from my neck of rural SW Ontario is that the primary driver of current financial security (controlling for variables like generational wealth, extremely upper percentile incomes, etc) is the timing of entering the housing market, which is primarily driven by age, with secondary branch for having pursued university or any other form of early adult transience.

Breaksdown in to 3 main tranches-

• Entered Market Prior to 2017 - Barring major misfortune or mistake this group is fairly set (with appropriate spending/lifestyle decisions)
• Entered Market 2017-2019 - the run up started, the later in the period the worse the housing to income ratio, this tranche is largely stable but with tigher budgets
• Entered Market 2020 or later, or renting- to quote Brihard, largely hooped. A lot of housing insecurity, a mountain to climb to enter the market, and once in, largely house poor. Renting relationships extremely precarious leading to being locked into accommodations that might not suit desired stage of life.

<remembers the recession of the early 80s when interest rates were 20% and there were zero jobs>


Prior to the 2007-09 recession, the 1981-82 recession was the worst economic downturn in the United States since the Great Depression. Indeed, the nearly 11 percent unemployment rate reached late in 1982 remains the apex of the post-World War II era (Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis). Unemployment during the 1981-82 recession was widespread, but manufacturing, construction, and the auto industries were particularly affected. Although goods producers accounted for only 30 percent of total employment at the time, they suffered 90 percent of job losses in 1982. Three-fourths of all job losses in the goods-producing sector were in manufacturing, and the residential construction industry and auto manufacturers ended the year with 22 percent and 24 percent unemployment, respectively (Urquhart and Hewson 1983, 4-7).

Recession of 1981-82

Lasting from July 1981 to November 1982, this economic downturn was triggered by tight monetary policy in an effort to fight mounting inflation.

www.federalreservehistory.org

 

[Kirkhill]

I got married in 1984. We moved to Calgary from Ontario in 1986 and bought our first house. We got lucky. My father died in 1983 at 56 and my mother died in 1985 at 55. Selling off their house in Peterborough supplied the downpayment for the mortgage on that first house.

Our neighbours across the way in our brand new subdivision included a lot of oil industry workers who bough after we did and sold up within months - some of them stripping out kitchen cabinets and lighy fixtures and hauling them back east in U-Hauls.

....

Key aspects of the NEP and its economic impact:

• Context: Introduced in October 1980 by the Liberal government, the NEP aimed to ensure Canadian energy self-sufficiency, increase Canadian ownership of oil companies, and redistribute oil wealth.
• Economic Impact: Critics argue the program, including a 25% "back-in" provision for the federal government on Crown lands, caused a massive outflow of investment dollars and an exodus of drilling rigs from Western Canada.
• Recession Drivers: The recession was driven by a combination of the NEP's taxes and a 50% drop in world oil prices by 1986.
• Lasting Legacy: The program created intense, long-lasting resentment in Western Canada towards the federal government, often characterized as a major factor in regional alienation.
• Dismantling: The Progressive Conservative government, led by Brian Mulroney, began dismantling the program in 1985 through the Western Accord.

While some analysts argue that the 1981-82 national recession and the global oil price collapse were more significant, the NEP is widely viewed as a major, self-inflicted economic blow to the Alberta economy during that era.

 

[JLB50]

And hasn’t changed much since. Bellyaching about Millenials is still a thing, I maintain that they are the most screwed over generation right now.

It seems like everybody’s getting screwed over for something or other. Maybe the Millenials should separate from the rest of Canadian society.

 

[IKnowNothing]

I don’t know… I’m an older millennial; at least many/most of us were hitting the job market and building professional lives and finding homes a decade or two ago. Gen Z coming right up behind us have started hitting adulthood in the past decade, and economically speaking, as a generation, when we look at things like housing costs vs incomes, they’re pretty hooped. They make up the bulk of my classmates, and their experiences and perspectives when we talk life plans just hit different. My generation is already struggling with starting and growing families, and we have it comparatively easier.

Quoting this again-

a lot of focus is (rightly) put on those just starting out, but I don't think enough time is spent considering how the same rapid run up completely distorted intra-millennial comparisons and introduced a significant source of societal friction and impotent frustration/rage. Z's can embrace the nihilistic reality that they're all screwed. Meanwhile large numbers of millennials are constantly faced with massive lifestyle and/or net worth gaps relative to their age and/or earnings peers.

The speed at which housing prices increased retroactively turned incremental life scheduling decisions and small speedbumps into a life altering financial hurdle.

 

[YZT580]

Quoting this again-

a lot of focus is (rightly) put on those just starting out, but I don't think enough time is spent considering how the same rapid run up completely distorted intra-millennial comparisons and introduced a significant source of societal friction and impotent frustration/rage. Z's can embrace the nihilistic reality that they're all screwed. Meanwhile large numbers of millennials are constantly faced with massive lifestyle and/or net worth gaps relative to their age and/or earnings peers.

The speed at which housing prices increased retroactively turned incremental life scheduling decisions and small speedbumps into a life altering financial hurdle.

and many of those mfg positions disappearing in the auto sector/steel are millennials.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Quoting this again-

a lot of focus is (rightly) put on those just starting out, but I don't think enough time is spent considering how the same rapid run up completely distorted intra-millennial comparisons and introduced a significant source of societal friction and impotent frustration/rage. Z's can embrace the nihilistic reality that they're all screwed. Meanwhile large numbers of millennials are constantly faced with massive lifestyle and/or net worth gaps relative to their age and/or earnings peers.

The speed at which housing prices increased retroactively turned incremental life scheduling decisions and small speedbumps into a life altering financial hurdle.

FWIW, a useful warning about being too keen on focusing on generational segmentation...

Generational segmentation can be a useful starting point, but do not assume it will be your final destination.

Key takeaways:

Generational segmentation has limitations:

While useful as a starting point, relying solely on generational labels can lead to inaccurate assumptions and missed opportunities. Individuals within a generation have diverse outlooks and aspirations; other factors beyond age significantly influence consumer behaviour.

Life stages and individual needs are crucial: People's purchasing decisions are often driven more by their current situation than the generational category they are placed in. Marketers should focus on understanding these needs and tailoring their messaging accordingly.

Empathy is key to cross-generational connection: Brands that demonstrate empathy by understanding and addressing the unique challenges and aspirations of different demographics can build stronger connections and drive engagement across generations.

Price and value remain paramount: Despite differences in values and priorities, consumers across all generations prioritise price and value. Brands need to deliver on these fundamental expectations to remain competitive.

Data-driven insights refine targeting: Marketers should leverage data and AI-powered tools to move beyond generational stereotypes and target audiences based on a more nuanced understanding of their needs, psychographics, and behaviours.

Generational Marketing: Breaking free from stereotypes

How to build brand success across generations with the power of empathy

www.ipsos.com

 

[IKnowNothing]

FWIW, a useful warning about being too keen on focusing on generational segmentation...

To be honest, not super useful or related.

I'm talking about intra (not inter) generational social comparisons within one specific cohort, and the profound impact the 2017-2022 run up is having on them.

 

[brihard]

Quoting this again-

a lot of focus is (rightly) put on those just starting out, but I don't think enough time is spent considering how the same rapid run up completely distorted intra-millennial comparisons and introduced a significant source of societal friction and impotent frustration/rage. Z's can embrace the nihilistic reality that they're all screwed. Meanwhile large numbers of millennials are constantly faced with massive lifestyle and/or net worth gaps relative to their age and/or earnings peers.

The speed at which housing prices increased retroactively turned incremental life scheduling decisions and small speedbumps into a life altering financial hurdle.

Great point. Even within my professional and generational peers, a difference of just two or three years of getting a well paying job and buying property could make or break the ‘run up’. I got I a bit ahead of it, much to my fortune. Others who missed it even by a year or two, not so much.

 

[Harris]

I read an article a while ago (I don't remember the name), but it talked about these things and also made the point that while home prices relative to income have increased, society too has changed. How many people are regularly buying $10 starbucks every day? (I admit, I get TIms every day, usually twice a day), but I also have my house paid off so I've got disposable income. How many people buy a 1-2k smart phone every time a new one comes out? (That I do NOT do). The point is many people's spending habits have also changed. To me it seems like many people are living for the now, and "later" will sort itself out later. My Grandfather and Father were scroungers and hoarders to the nth degree. We tore down an old barn once and saved every rusted, bent nail. When we built the new one, we were searching through an old paint can of old bent nails and pounding them straight to re use. (Or at least we did until I got fed up and went into town and bought $30 worth of new nails, which increased the construction speed by at least 50%). To my earlier generation things had value until they didn't. Time was plentiful. I find now we're more like "my time has a value", so just buy a new thing to save time and throw the old one out. This way of thinking definitely increases the day-to-day cost of living, but gives you more time.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Great point. Even within my professional and generational peers, a difference of just two or three years of getting a well paying job and buying property could make or break the ‘run up’. I got I a bit ahead of it, much to my fortune. Others who missed it even by a year or two, not so much.

An illustration - Ted, Fred, and Jed are roughly the same age (30's) and live on the same suburban street, in near identical cookie cutter suburban family homes. Kids the same age, very similar family take home incomes. All are boring, rolling 5yr fixed over 25yr amortizations.

Ted bought his house in Jan of 2017 for $275k, renewed in Jan of 22
Fred bought his house in June of 2019 for $370k, renewed in June of 24
Jed bought his house in Dec of 2021 for $583k, renewal upcoming

Based posted non-high ratio rates available to them, for the last several years, their mortgages were:

Ted is still ~$970/month $11,640 per year
Fred was at $1320 month $15,840 per year until his renewal, then jumped to $1570 month $18,840 per year
Jed is at $2052 month $24,624 per year, staring down the barrel of a ~2300 month renewal at the end of the year


Ted's family can live a very different life than Jed's. Unless Jed is has buddha level self actualization that's going to weigh on him and influence his world view.

Then throw in his coworker Steve who makes the same money but is a few years older and bought in 13. Has Ted's mortgage payments and discretional spending level, but parlayed his equity into a much nicer house in 2018, a house that is now firmly out of reach for all of Ted, Fred, and Jed.

 

[Halifax Tar]

An illustration - Ted, Fred, and Jed are roughly the same age (30's) and live on the same suburban street, in near identical cookie cutter suburban family homes. Kids the same age, very similar family take home incomes. All are boring, rolling 5yr fixed over 25yr amortizations.

Ted bought his house in Jan of 2017 for $275k, renewed in Jan of 22
Fred bought his house in June of 2019 for $370k, renewed in June of 24
Jed bought his house in Dec of 2021 for $583k, renewal upcoming

Based posted non-high ratio rates available to them, for the last several years, their mortgages were:

Ted is still ~$970/month $11,640 per year
Fred was at $1320 month $15,840 per year until his renewal, then jumped to $1570 month $18,840 per year
Jed is at $2052 month $24,624 per year, staring down the barrel of a ~2300 month renewal at the end of the year


Ted's family can live a very different life than Jed's. Unless Jed is has buddha level self actualization that's going to way on him and influence his world view.

Then throw in his coworker Steve who makes the same money but is a few years older and bought in 13. Has Ted's mortgage payments and discretional spending level, but parlayed his equity into a much nicer house in 2018, a house that is now firmly out of reach for all of Ted, Fred, and Jed.

My knee jerk reaction is burn the system down, its crooked and fkd.

But whats the alternative ?