High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I agree HT,....if folks feel like we need to put our kids another (at least) 90 billion in debt, let's at least use it to fix up things that matter to a lot more of the country, like fixing up the Trans Canada Highway from end to end.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I agree HT,....if folks feel like we need to put our kids another (at least) 90 billion in debt, let's at least use it to fix up things that matter to a lot more of the country, like fixing up the Trans Canada Highway from end to end.

Agreed I drive the TCH a few times a year from NS to Kingston and return. Perhaps that would be a better spend of 90 billion $$$.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Out off the other coast, I'd be happy with any rail, so long as it's not lethal to ride on, takes large, predictable bulk freight off the roads, provides a trunk passenger service to somewhere near most of the airports and some of the ferries, and has a commuter service, for Vic/Esq, Duncan, Nanaimo, and Courtenay at the same speeds as were provided by steam a century ago. "Catching up to post-Soviet legacy-infrastructure-heavy Eastern European services" would be aspirational at this point.

Similar services for everywhere else in the province with never-ending highway issues and projects and ever-growing populations would be lovely. Really need a new WAC Bennet and a rail-focused Gaglardi.

On reflection, I've probably posted something along these lines before!

Meanwhile CN wants to abandon the existing railline north of Squamish into the interior of BC. There is corporation pushback on that, but the current softwood crisis is not helping. Personally I would like to see the railline between Minette and Dease Lake completed. Then push it into the Yukon and link up to Alaska.

 

[YZT580]

There's undoubtedly a lot to be done. Nobody is suggesting that this project is where it ends.

But the nature of large projects is that they have to start a decade or two in advance. Especially in this country.

The Quebec-Windsor Corridor is already choking on traffic. On top of that, airports are starting to max out. None of this gets better in 15 years. Or we simply accept stagnation for half the population and GDP of the country. If we don't want to see that in 2040, then gotta start building the alternatives now.

And I would say the same for other highly populated parts of the country like the lower Mainland. Possibly even the CalEd corridor given the way traffic is heading there.

no argument. So do you build a half a dozen lines (VR Island, lower mainland, Calgary/Edmonton, Windsor/Toronto, Toronto/Quebec via Montreal and probably an argument for one through Nova Scotia as well, or do we spend all the money and time on a single line that accommodates only the principal city dwellers in a few principal cities and ignore the rest

 

[ytz]

no argument. So do you build a half a dozen lines (VR Island, lower mainland, Calgary/Edmonton, Windsor/Toronto, Toronto/Quebec via Montreal and probably an argument for one through Nova Scotia as well, or do we spend all the money and time on a single line that accommodates only the principal city dwellers in a few principal cities and ignore the rest

You're assuming other lines are cheap and that the majority of cost inflation comes from the speed. In reality, significant costs and complications are land assembly and expropriation. And that's the same for all the other lines you propose. Alto is basically proof of concept here. If it doesn't get built, don't expect anything else (especially passenger rail) to ever get built.

 

[YZT580]

You're assuming other lines are cheap and that the majority of cost inflation comes from the speed. In reality, significant costs and complications are land assembly and expropriation. And that's the same for all the other lines you propose. Alto is basically proof of concept here. If it doesn't get built, don't expect anything else (especially passenger rail) to ever get built.

In a lot of places i.e. Victoria to Nanaimo the right of way is already there. There is also a line from Halifax to Sydney, Parry Sound to Ottawa and just about any other city pair you want to choose. Alto is not proof of concept, that can be found in all of those wonderful European cities you rave about. We know HS can work but for 90 billion or probably a lot more we can link dozens of cities in short line 90 mph commuter trains without destroying villages and farms. Community is far more important than getting to Ottawa in 2 hours rather than 3

 

[ytz]

In a lot of places i.e. Victoria to Nanaimo the right of way is already there. There is also a line from Halifax to Sydney, Parry Sound to Ottawa and just about any other city pair you want to choose. Alto is not proof of concept, that can be found in all of those wonderful European cities you rave about. We know HS can work but for 90 billion or probably a lot more we can link dozens of cities in short line 90 mph commuter trains without destroying villages and farms. Community is far more important than getting to Ottawa in 2 hours rather than 3

Your goal is equity. Chicken in every pot. The rail version of Equalization.

HSR advocates like me want to see ridership and economic return. These are not the same.

I don't believe in throwing good money after bad. The big cities you're whining about generate 70-80% of VIA's ridership and have all the transit usage in the Corridor. I don't believe billions on rail service in rural areas (where the idea of public transport is mocked) would ever return even a fraction of the same ridership. Which in turn means, nowhere near the same economic benefit. Hell, on a recent course in Trenton we had guys walking from the train station to the base because Trenton can't sustain a cab company after hours. The Joining Instructions now tell people about this.

Put it this way. HSR has the equivalent transport capacity of 20 lanes of freeway. Regular non-grade separated rail is probably something like 6-8 lanes. Do any of the city pairs you mention even have enough traffic to even require 4 lane highways? Will any of them need that over next two to three decades based on pre-Covid population growth (which we're going back to)? HSR is being built between the big cities for rhe same reason subways are built in Toronto and not Kelowna. It's where the users are.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Capacity is awesome except when the seats sit empty.....

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Hell, on a recent course in Trenton we had guys walking from the train station to the base because Trenton can't sustain a cab company after hours. The Joining Instructions now tell people about this.

Well, if it does go through, hopefully the folks are smarter then the people running courses at CFB Trenton.....arranging a lift for someone attending a course should not be a big deal with the resources available.

 

[ytz]

Well, if it does go through, hopefully the folks are smarter then the people running courses at CFB Trenton.....arranging a lift for someone attending a course should not be a big deal with the resources available.

Student went home on the weekend. Took the last train back on Sunday. Called the taxi number given by Yukon Lodge. "We don't have service tonight.". Now the JI just says, "Bring a car or plan to bum rides."

And yes, while it shouldn't be a big deal to plan rides, that is beside the point in the context of this thread. A place that can't support 24/7/365 taxi service is not one you want to invest billions of dollars of rail infrastructure into. Clearly the people who live there are fine being fully reliant on private vehicles.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Clearly the people who live there are fine being fully reliant on private vehicles.

Guess you haven't driven in Toronto or Montreal lately.....

 

[lenaitch]

I, personally, asked for this thread to be reopened.

My reason is that some of my family have received letters from Alto. Looks like this will trample over some of our family farms and put some out of business.

This is what has been told me is what it intends to trample over:

Farmland
Family homes
Wildlife Habitats
Small Business
Churches
Cemeteries

While I live in NS and will probably never feel a net result of this, I can say I am quickly turning into an anti.

I have no dog in the hunt and will likely never see it or ride it (aka: I don't really care), but so goes every public infrastructure. I can't argue whether or not it is money well spent, but probably every highway, road widening, forces base or water treatment plant was built on land somebody else owned unless it was Crown land. It's only expropriation when the two parties can't come to an agreement.

I wonder how much land was acquired for Hwy 401 or the St. Lawrence Seaway. A buddy's wife grew up in a town that is now underwater.

In a lot of places i.e. Victoria to Nanaimo the right of way is already there. There is also a line from Halifax to Sydney, Parry Sound to Ottawa and just about any other city pair you want to choose. Alto is not proof of concept, that can be found in all of those wonderful European cities you rave about. We know HS can work but for 90 billion or probably a lot more we can link dozens of cities in short line 90 mph commuter trains without destroying villages and farms. Community is far more important than getting to Ottawa in 2 hours rather than 3

Most, if not all of those old ROWs certainly wouldn't be suitable for service with any kind of speed; most were surveyed well over a century ago in the age of steam. Many of the old ROWs have been built over, so you are back to the same problem.

 

[YZT580]

Your goal is equity. Chicken in every pot. The rail version of Equalization.

HSR advocates like me want to see ridership and economic return. These are not the same.

I don't believe in throwing good money after bad. The big cities you're whining about generate 70-80% of VIA's ridership and have all the transit usage in the Corridor. I don't believe billions on rail service in rural areas (where the idea of public transport is mocked) would ever return even a fraction of the same ridership. Which in turn means, nowhere near the same economic benefit. Hell, on a recent course in Trenton we had guys walking from the train station to the base because Trenton can't sustain a cab company after hours. The Joining Instructions now tell people about this.

Put it this way. HSR has the equivalent transport capacity of 20 lanes of freeway. Regular non-grade separated rail is probably something like 6-8 lanes. Do any of the city pairs you mention even have enough traffic to even require 4 lane highways? Will any of them need that over next two to three decades based on pre-Covid population growth (which we're going back to)? HSR is being built between the big cities for rhe same reason subways are built in Toronto and not Kelowna. It's where the users are.

Yours is an elitist attitude. Peterborough/Toronto ran full until they stopped it. I caught the Budd out of Victoria and fit was half full of normal people taking advantage of a service that allowed them to leave their cars in the drive. Each GO train they put into service on previously abandoned routes travel with a decent number of passengers every day. No it isn't 6 lanes of traffic but then there isn't 6 lanes of traffic to Ottawa either. 6 lanes end at Cobourg. From then on it is 4. Why? Because that is where the volume to justify the additional lanes fades out. By the time you get to Kingston, most of the traffic that started in Toronto has turned off. What is needed is a reliable service for all those folks in between with a dedicated track that means they won't sit and wait for a mile long freight and that runs more than a few times a day with more than 4 coaches. Mine isn't the rail version of equalization. It is giving people who want to go somewhere other than Ottawa an option that is better than the 401 and PMV.
I've watched the ICE trains pulling in and apart from the ones that line up with the start and close of business they have a lot of empty seats. They certainly don't take the equivalent of 20 lanes of traffic off the autoban. As for your figures re: traffic lanes assuming you mean 10 each way, the books say that a 4 lane highway can accommodate 2225 per hour at 120 km. so you are talking a train capacity of over 10,000 per hour. Since the average train only carries about 720 passengers I would love to see how you are going to move 10,000 passengers per hour through Union Station and then on or off the 12 trains per hour pulling in from one point. If you are running at capacity with a train every 30 minutes each direction that is only the equivalent of our current 401 after Cobourg.

 

[YZT580]

I have no dog in the hunt and will likely never see it or ride it (aka: I don't really care), but so goes every public infrastructure. I can't argue whether or not it is money well spent, but probably every highway, road widening, forces base or water treatment plant was built on land somebody else owned unless it was Crown land. It's only expropriation when the two parties can't come to an agreement.

I wonder how much land was acquired for Hwy 401 or the St. Lawrence Seaway. A buddy's wife grew up in a town that is now underwater.


Most, if not all of those old ROWs certainly wouldn't be suitable for service with any kind of speed; most were surveyed well over a century ago in the age of steam. Many of the old ROWs have been built over, so you are back to the same problem.

True but less land is needed for curves etc. if you drop the speeds below 120 and you don't need as many overpasses. Didn't those old steam trains run faster in some cases than the current VIA? I can certainly recall racing the dayliner to Owen Sound and having it pull ahead.