High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[SeaKingTacco]

I get their dynamic. But economics is economics. A train with a station at YYC enables YYC to have higher gauge aircraft with lower unit costs to more destinations. YEG will struggle to compete with that.

There will be no way YYC gets a HSR train station and YEG doesn’t. That is just Alberta politics.

 

[Brad Sallows]

There will be no way YYC gets a HSR train station and YEG doesn’t. That is just Alberta politics.

Be realistic. HSR between Calgary and Edmonton would be egregiously expensive if it had to detour so far out of its was as to pass through the two airports.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Be realistic. HSR between Calgary and Edmonton would be egregiously expensive if it had to detour so far out of its was as to pass through the two airports.

You are right. Might as well build a railway to the moon…

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Southern Ontario has population density on par with Spain which has the highest density of high speed rail in the world. A single line connecting major centres is only controversial here.

There's a Spanish train that runs between
Guadalquivir and old Saville
And at dead of night the whistle blows
And people hear she's running still

And then they hush their children back to sleep
Lock the doors, upstairs they creep
For it is said that the souls of the dead
Fill that train ten thousand deep

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Be realistic. HSR between Calgary and Edmonton would be egregiously expensive if it had to detour so far out of its was as to pass through the two airports.

After I have gotten being a smart ass out of my system, you realistically would not even need to bend the tracks for those two airports to be serviced. Keep the HSR line straight(ish) and put a branch LRT line that “T”s off the airport station to the terminal. It likely would not even be more than a kilometre long in either case.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Schrodinger's overpopulation. So overpopulated that they'll run out of groundwater but apparently not populated enough to support HSR. By their logic .....

Southern Ontario has population density on par with Spain which has the highest density of high speed rail in the world. A single line connecting major centres is only controversial here.

...and who the frig wants to be Spain??

 

[YZT580]

I get their dynamic. But economics is economics. A train with a station at YYC enables YYC to have higher gauge aircraft with lower unit costs to more destinations. YEG will struggle to compete with that.

And what makes you believe that it will be YYC winning the airport lottery?

Any decent train service will cut the time airport to airport to less than 2 hours with a stop in Red Deer. A High Speed with no stops perhaps a bit over an hour and 20 minutes if the speeds are comparable to Eurostar. Paris to Brussels is almost identical to YC and ED. The train eliminated air travel but it certainly didn't close or even reduce traffic at either except of course for the inter-city flights. The A380 was supposed to eliminate dozens of destinations through a hub and spoke operation with A319 sized a/c working the spokes for longer distances and High Speed Rail covering the 300 km or less routes. The whole idea fell through and the A380 ended up as a bespoke concept. Nobody wants to spend up to 3 hours getting to their flight unless they absolutely have to and that is what would happen if you closed either airport or went international only out of one or the other. The notion of consolidating flights looks good on paper but it doesn't work in real life.

 

[Altair]

Uhhh.... folks.

It is in the plan.

Alberta eyes downtown-to-airport trains as 1st passenger rail master plan project | Globalnews.ca

The province is spending $15 million over the next three years to advance planning efforts for train connections between Edmonton and Calgary's airports and the downtown cores.

globalnews.ca

Alberta’s government is eyeing train connections between airports and the downtown cores of its two biggest cities as the first key projects in its new passenger rail plan.

The province said initial work is already underway to examine connections between Edmonton and Calgary’s international airports and those city’s downtowns, would be built as extensions to each city’s existing LRT systems.

My understanding is it wont be HSR between the airports and the HSR terminals, but part of the feeder networks.

 

[Altair]

Anyways, im happy the two regions of Canada that actually have the population density and geography (sorry BC) to support HSR seem to be getting projects with real potential for shovels in the ground.

We seem to be growing up as a country.

 

[Brad Sallows]

After I have gotten being a smart ass out of my system, you realistically would not even need to bend the tracks for those two airports to be serviced. Keep the HSR line straight(ish) and put a branch LRT line that “T”s off the airport station to the terminal. It likely would not even be more than a kilometre long in either case.

I was being a smart ass also. Both airports are essentially between any two likely terminus points.

 

[Brad Sallows]

"Growing up".

I do so very much enjoy it when HSR proponents resort to sounding like a huckster selling a monorail: because status.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I must say that I do love this old train track between Guelph and Goderich.
Maybe someday I'll be riding on the HSR line when they pull up those tracks for financial reasons....

 

[Altair]

"Growing up".

I do so very much enjoy it when HSR proponents resort to sounding like a huckster selling a monorail: because status.

Are you not supportive of the Alberta initiative?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

And what makes you believe that it will be YYC winning the airport lottery?

Any decent train service will cut the time airport to airport to less than 2 hours with a stop in Red Deer. A High Speed with no stops perhaps a bit over an hour and 20 minutes if the speeds are comparable to Eurostar. Paris to Brussels is almost identical to YC and ED. The train eliminated air travel but it certainly didn't close or even reduce traffic at either except of course for the inter-city flights. The A380 was supposed to eliminate dozens of destinations through a hub and spoke operation with A319 sized a/c working the spokes for longer distances and High Speed Rail covering the 300 km or less routes. The whole idea fell through and the A380 ended up as a bespoke concept. Nobody wants to spend up to 3 hours getting to their flight unless they absolutely have to and that is what would happen if you closed either airport or went international only out of one or the other. The notion of consolidating flights looks good on paper but it doesn't work in real life.

Because YYC is Westjet’s hub and also has more international flights than YEG?

YEG isn’t going away, even if some consultant said you could service all of Alberta with one major airport (no consultant said so and you can’t). But, of the two, YYC has to some extent won the airport lottery and will be the more important of the two.

 

[Maxman1]

"Growing up".

I do so very much enjoy it when HSR proponents resort to sounding like a huckster selling a monorail: because status.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Little known fact (and I know this because my uncle was ADM (air) at the department of transport (now Transport Canada) in the early 70's), when "super-airports" hubs were looked at in the late 60's- early 70's, TC concluded that neither Toronto, nor Montreal were big enough to justify a super airport. The plan put forward to the politicians by the department was to build a single super-airport near Kingston and at the same time, build HSR connections to Toronto (1h20min), Montreal (1h15 min) and Ottawa (1h 5 min.)

But politicians got into the act: Both Toronto and Montreal had to get a super-airport. Montreal started first with Mirabel, but Toronto saw the mess it was and stopped it before they could get started , choosing to expand their current one instead.

To give you an idea of the size of the Mirabel operation: There was a meteorological event in the late 70's that closed all of the US Eastern seaboard airports North of Georgia and all the way in to this side of the Appalachians. The planes were all diverted to Mirabel. During that event, it operated at 50% capacity.

 

[ytz]

Nobody is talking about "super airports" or shutting down Edmonton.

But economics is what it is. Better access favours the larger airport through economics of agglomeration. Just like how people today drive from Edmonton to Calgary or Ottawa to Montreal for better flight deals. If there's a train, those folks will find it even easier to get to the cheaper airport. And that cheaper airport will see average gauge of the aircraft servicing it, driving unit costs lower, compounding the advantage. Sure, people will still fly to Ottawa and Edmonton. But more and more people who live in Ottawa and Edmonton will take the train to get a long haul flight from the neighbouring city.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Nobody is talking about "super airports" or shutting down Edmonton.

But economics is what it is. Better access favours the larger airport through economics of agglomeration. Just like how people today drive from Edmonton to Calgary or Ottawa to Montreal for better flight deals. If there's a train, those folks will find it even easier to get to the cheaper airport. And that cheaper airport will see average gauge of the aircraft servicing it, driving unit costs lower, compounding the advantage. Sure, people will still fly to Ottawa and Edmonton. But more and more people who live in Ottawa and Edmonton will take the train to get a long haul flight from the neighbouring city.

There’s a company in south western Ontario called ‘Robert Q’ which offers a shuttle service throughout that area to the airports in Detroit, Buffalo and Toronto.

 

[YZT580]

Nobody is talking about "super airports" or shutting down Edmonton.

But economics is what it is. Better access favours the larger airport through economics of agglomeration. Just like how people today drive from Edmonton to Calgary or Ottawa to Montreal for better flight deals. If there's a train, those folks will find it even easier to get to the cheaper airport. And that cheaper airport will see average gauge of the aircraft servicing it, driving unit costs lower, compounding the advantage. Sure, people will still fly to Ottawa and Edmonton. But more and more people who live in Ottawa and Edmonton will take the train to get a long haul flight from the neighbouring city.

Every route between cities generates a predictable number of users. Airlines know this and assign their aircraft accordingly which is why there aren't any direct flights from Edmonton to Heathrow for example. Both Westjet and Air Canada operate 787 aircraft out of Calgary. Now if Amsterdam is on your bucket list both Calgary and Edmonton offer direct flights but only via KLM and they run A330s. Aircraft types though are selected first of all for range. Almost all of the overseas traffic are wide bodies so there is no such thing as a variable gauge. Smaller aircraft will be selected on shorter runs i.e. 5 hours or less dependent upon the season like an A319 or A320 or B737 for the Caribbean flights except in the winter when a larger aircraft is needed. So forget your economics of agglomeration. Everything is based on load factors. Plus little airplanes run out of gas about mid-Atlantic unless they make an intermediate stop. Icelandair offered great deals out of Toronto on their 757s provided you didn't mind a 2 hour layover in Reykjavik. It wasn't terribly successful. People preferred the wide body direct flights. And the emphasis is on direct which is why having to connect via train from Edmonton to Calgary will be a non-starter for many people.
They have been trying to convert Hamilton into a satellite hub of Toronto for decades now. Most everyone has gone broke trying even though the flights were often cheaper and the airport was far more convenient for anyone west of Mississauga. West Jet was great for a little while but the majority of their revenue was generated in Toronto. Porter is doing OK there but they are careful to limit their number of flights to what the area can support. They aren't trying to make it a hub.

 

[lenaitch]

They have been trying to convert Hamilton into a satellite hub of Toronto for decades now. Most everyone has gone broke trying even though the flights were often cheaper and the airport was far more convenient for anyone west of Mississauga.

The problems with Hamilton, or any secondary hub, was the lack of connections and/or direct flights to many destinations. If your journey started and ended in Hamilton - ok. Also, it's convenience was largely limited to vehicle travel and, as you say, to those west of the GTA. Prior to the current border silliness, folks looking to drive a little further and have less direct flights, but save money, would often keep driving to Buffalo.