Canada to Spend $5.0Bil on AEW Aircraft (Saab Globaleye)

[KevinB]

What about all levels of counter measures. Which I do not think Ukraine has access to.
It was not that many years ago when the allies went in and spoofed the Iraqi Air defense system with multiple levels of counter measures active and passive.

Our (allies) EW/ Surveillance aircraft are being fitted with both offense and defensive weapon systems. Along with their "sophisticated counter measure suits"

All you have to do is view footage of the Israelis running tanker operations over Tehran.
At a point of Air Supremacy and successful SEAD you pretty much can do what you want.

Concern exists if your enemy takes the first swing (which lets face it the Russians have pretty much adopted the Sucker punch as their MO)
As well as over the IndoPac theatre due to what @ytz mentioned.

Right now we put all our eggs into one basket relying on the F35 to be end all package deal. It was to replace AWACS, it was to replace other counter intelligence/ measures aircraft in a all in one package that could swoop in with its data fusion process and control up to 4 autonomous wingman aircraft while directing multiple other non stealth aircraft to destroy and hinder the enemy.

The F-35 was never designed to replace AWACS
You cannot stuff that sort of radar, and C2 gear into something that has less than 1/10th the available space.

We need a mixture of aircraft, That is why I was a fan of the F18 Growler ECM capable suit. Was it perfect over all no. But the overall package was good enough for what we would require as we transition into 5, 5+ -7 gen systems.

Now we have a pretty good chance of building a good overall system of Stealthy Aircraft (F35), surveillance aircraft (P8, Global Eye, CE-145C, and the NASP Dash 8,) along with the general duty (Gryphen). Of note the Gryphen can be fitted with a pretty good Counter measure, jamming, foiling suite. Is it the best, maybe maybe not. But it has proven systems in one package that we can utilize for the foreseeable future.

If ball actually gets roiling we may have a well balance fleet across the board with all our aircraft.

Honestly if the F35 program in its fullness could actually get to a point where it worked fully integrated with all its promises then we would be set for the next 5 years instead we are still hoping for the best radar and hoping for all that sensor fusion to work as proposed/ promised.

I honestly believe once we get rolling with what has been actually committed to and have the actual physical systems in our hands we will use the equipment in ways people did not think of. It really is the Canadian way. Those little tweaks will allow us to be at the top. We just need build the road to drive first.

 

[childs56]

All you have to do is view footage of the Israelis running tanker operations over Tehran.
At a point of Air Supremacy and successful SEAD you pretty much can do what you want.

The Israelis have done what Canada needs to do and that is buy a platform then make it work better for us. Israel

Concern exists if your enemy takes the first swing (which lets face it the Russians have pretty much adopted the Sucker punch as their MO)
As well as over the IndoPac theatre due to what @ytz mentioned.





The F-35 was never designed to replace AWACS
You cannot stuff that sort of radar, and C2 gear into something that has less than 1/10th the available space.

The f35 was suppose to take over the role of command and control of the air and ground space using sensor fusion. Less than a sqn of f35s were suppose to be able to cover the same if not larger area then what AWACS could do and deeper into enemy territory. Being safer as less staff on one platform with multiple redundancy's incase a system went down.
Tie that all in with the satellite program and possible subsurface sea sensors and you were suppose to of gained an agile, fast stealthy, bomb. missile carrying force to be reckoned with.
plans have changed and orders possibly made for the new AWACS plane as satellites may not be as capable as once thought.

Plans change as the situation evolves and actual experience on the ground changes.
I think this is where we are seeing multiple countries deploying multiple airframes still to deal with actual known and thought out potential threats.
In my opinion Israel leads the way across the board on types and employment of their aircraft, along with integrating with their allies.
Even the US utilizes various platforms currently and for the next foreseeable future of command and control surveillance and spoofing planes.

I hope in the short term as time goes on we will see the F35 morph into what it was suppose to be and we will also see the next gen of platforms that will support all things.
To many try to focus on their eggs in one basket as a be all end all process. Time and time again we have found adding pieces around from different aspects works the best.

 

[ytz]

You are substantially misunderstanding fifth gen air warfare.

The F-35 was never supposed to take over C2. No idea where this is coming from. What it can do is provide substantial passive collection and pass a ton of information through MADL, which other F-35s can fuse onboard in a coherent manner to consistently maintain the Common Operating Picture (COP) with much higher fidelity and refreshed tracks. This in turns substantially enhances Situational Awareness which in turn allows much better local decisionmaking. That information also gets passed back to various control centres, be that an AEWC or Ground Control Centre. Including these days with Cloud Based C2.

An F-35 is not a replacement for airborne radar. And nobody has suggested that. The long range of airborne radar is still very useful.

We need a mixture of aircraft, That is why I was a fan of the F18 Growler ECM capable suit. Was it perfect over all no. But the overall package was good enough for what we would require as we transition into 5, 5+ -7 gen systems.

The Growler is an extremely specialized asset that would be substantially underutilized by the RCAF. Sure, it's needed in a coalition context. But there's less utility in a lot of defensive situations. If we bought this, we'd end up buying like half a dozen max. Australia is the only country other than the US to field the Growler and they only have a dozen. Realistically for us, a business jet based EW aircraft with some Stand Off Jamming (SOJ) capability like the Compass Call (EA-37B US), Hava SOJ (Turkey) or the Block 1 EWSDP / KJammer (Korea) are good enough. And indeed something like that is on the books. Note that both the Hava SOJ and the KJammer use Bombardier Globals. Tactical jamming for air forces like the RCAF is probably migrating to CCA payloads in the 2030s.

Lets Talk Briefly About The Canadian Deep Sensing and Electronic Warfare Aircraft (CDSEA)

Opinion

www.truenorthstrategicreview.ca

 

[KevinB]

The Israelis have done what Canada needs to do and that is buy a platform then make it work better for us.

Israel is in a much different situation that Canada.

Israel has been support by the USG with subsidized weapons programs and militarily assistance.
Having the various F-16, F-15, F-35 are due to Israel being aptly focused on defense issues. For decades Canada’s policies mostly ignored defense. Which Canada justified due to not having a neighbor that had wiping out your existence as its #1 goal.

Canada faces situations and scales that no other Western Nation does, simply due to the giant coastlines.
Equipment that work for Canada may not work for all others and vice versa.


@ytz dealt with some of your other misconceptions.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

justified due to not having a neighbor that had wiping out your existence as its #1 goal.

Well, that's not that clear anymore, is it .

 

[childs56]

Israel is in a much different situation that Canada.

Israel has been support by the USG with subsidized weapons programs and militarily assistance.
Having the various F-16, F-15, F-35 are due to Israel being aptly focused on defense issues. For decades Canada’s policies mostly ignored defense. Which Canada justified due to not having a neighbor that had wiping out your existence as its #1 goal.

Canada faces situations and scales that no other Western Nation does, simply due to the giant coastlines.
Equipment that work for Canada may not work for all others and vice versa.

@ytz dealt with some of your other misconceptions.

Never fool yourself all Canada and Europe was utlized by the US as a buffer zone for fall out from Nuclear material. Plans were always to intercept incomming missiles over non US territory to defend the continential United States.
According to DT Canada has been heavily subsidized by the US Military along with their manufactring and supply network for many years.
Israel and other parts of the Middle East allow the US to fight a proxy war to which they can deny exists. Until it does not.

You are substantially misunderstanding fifth gen air warfare.

The F-35 was never supposed to take over C2. No idea where this is coming from.

US defense papers.
They discussed the elimination of all AWACS aircraft, running sattilite and or drones as communcations relay stations/hubs as required and having the F35 control the battle space.
The plan was to have F35 and F22 dominate the area, then alllow other assest (bomb trucks) to deploy and safely eliminate targets.
It also discussed the F35 group providing direct real time data, command and control to the Combined all arms under C4ISR. Discussion was for the F35 group to cordinate and target air, sea (sub sea) and land based targets utilizing all seaborne, land born, airborne and space assests to defeat, control and deny the enemy.

F35 was to CC the battle space due to its sensor fusion package.
The US was eliminating AWACS until they realized
1. F35 does not and more then likely will never be able to perform the full spectrum they dreamt of it doing.
2. Satellites are not that easy to deploy and maintain on the scale required for the type of operations they envisioned them for.
3. The rest of the Western World is not buying into the full space program, nor the cost of such a program that has been going on for 40 plus years and still can not reliably defend agaisnt ballistic missile threats, let alone find osama in a house in Pakistan.
4. The Us realizes they still need a AWACS capable plane. In fact they have boosteed its overall capabiltiy (depends on who you talk to). They also understand one platform can not do everything, everywhere. So they have employed various sized platforms and capabilites to suit their needs.
What is interesting is the employment of various Aircraft types over the past few years to accomplish missions that were not known about and or done by other/concentrated means.

What it can do is provide substantial passive collection and pass a ton of information through MADL, which other F-35s can fuse onboard in a coherent manner to consistently maintain the Common Operating Picture (COP) with much higher fidelity and refreshed tracks. This in turns substantially enhances Situational Awareness which in turn allows much better local decisionmaking. That information also gets passed back to various control centres, be that an AEWC or Ground Control Centre. Including these days with Cloud Based C2.

An F-35 is not a replacement for airborne radar. And nobody has suggested that. The long range of airborne radar is still very useful.



The Growler is an extremely specialized asset that would be substantially underutilized by the RCAF. Sure, it's needed in a coalition context. But there's less utility in a lot of defensive situations. If we bought this, we'd end up buying like half a dozen max. Australia is the only country other than the US to field the Growler and they only have a dozen. Realistically for us, a business jet based EW aircraft with some Stand Off Jamming (SOJ) capability like the Compass Call (EA-37B US), Hava SOJ (Turkey) or the Block 1 EWSDP / KJammer (Korea) are good enough. And indeed something like that is on the books. Note that both the Hava SOJ and the KJammer use Bombardier Globals. Tactical jamming for air forces like the RCAF is probably migrating to CCA payloads in the 2030s.

Lets Talk Briefly About The Canadian Deep Sensing and Electronic Warfare Aircraft (CDSEA)

Opinion

www.truenorthstrategicreview.ca

The Growler would have been a great asset for Canada to have in my opinion. Again it can bring alot more to the table then we need, we can adapt it for other requirements. We could of used a Sqn or three of F18 E/F models until we gained full operational capacity for what ever Model of F35 we get.

Ultimatly it is all in how one looks at the future and our needs.
I think Canada going with the Over the Horizon Radar from Austrialia is a good step in the right direction. The US is upgrading their Radar stations in Along the Northern Dew Line.
I also think us buying the Global Eye as a good step forward. Along with getting the P8s, ( I would have liked to see us get on board with the bombarider offering)
The sattilite program we are going ahead with although is more scietific reasons they did state it can be used for Military requrimetns if needed.

Time will tell if the systems will come together and do the job the promised or if it all falls apart and we have to make do with what we have.