Do we need Cadets? Should they be military/uniformed? (split from Trump administration 2024-2028)

[Haggis]

The Cadet organization is the biggest youth movement in Canada. Upwards of 70K kids participate. Doing away with that would cause all those kids to have to seek another origanization which may or may not fit their needs or interests.

I don't have an issue with CIC/COATS wearing a CAF uniform. I do, from time to time, have an issue with how they wear it. But after 6 years working in the NCR, I can say the same about some Reg F and P Res as well.

 

[Kilted]

I believe that the Cadet program should be retained, but I would like to see the numbers of how many recruits for the CAF the Cadet program creates (excluding CIC).

I think I have already stated the changes I would like to see for the CIC. Different uniforms, as well as either a separate rank structure, or if they are going to stay commissioned officers, require them to have university degrees and complete BMOQ like every other officer in the CAF.

 

[Haggis]

I believe that the Cadet program should be retained, but I would like to see the numbers of how many recruits for the CAF the Cadet program creates (excluding CIC).

I think I have already stated the changes I would like to see for the CIC. Different uniforms, as well as either a separate rank structure, or if they are going to stay commissioned officers, require them to have university degrees and complete BMOQ like every other officer in the CAF.

Many CIC/COATS members are ex-P Res/Reg F CAF members. They stayed in due to love of the service. Taking away their entitlement to a CAF uniform and accoutrements would likely have a devastating effect on recruiting and retention. I used to work in DGRC and found their D&D was not all that bad on the whole. Hegseth is just cherry picking to make himself feel better.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I believe that the Cadet program should be retained, but I would like to see the numbers of how many recruits for the CAF the Cadet program creates (excluding CIC).

I don't think anyone is tracking the numbers, be glad to be proven wrong. Sending out a simple google form with about 5-7 questions to each member would give you an idea. I think it's a Stat that the recruiting arm could easily collect, with 1-3 questions with tick boxes linked to a field, to allow data collection.

 

[dapaterson]

Many CIC/COATS members are ex-P Res/Reg F CAF members. They stayed in due to love of the service. Taking away their entitlement to a CAF uniform and accoutrements would likely have a devastating effect on recruiting and retention. I used to work in DGRC and found their D&D was not all that bad on the whole. Hegseth is just cherry picking to make himself feel better.

"Many" is not a valid data point.

Decisions should not be based on "everyone knows".

 

[Jarnhamar]

Giving CIC a commission is weird.

They stayed in due to love of the service. Taking away their entitlement to a CAF uniform and accoutrements would likely have a devastating effect on recruiting and retention.

That's possible. I'd offer if they want to be in uniform and have their accouterments it would be better to stick with the military.

They should be given olive drab uniforms the same as the cadets get.

 

[dapaterson]

Giving CIC a commission is weird.


That's possible. I'd offer if they want to be in uniform and have their accouterments it would be better to stick with the military.

They should be given olive drab uniforms the same as the cadets get.

And significantly reduced pay scales.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

"Many" is not a valid data point.

Decisions should not be based on "everyone knows".

So since the CAF has been funding this program for generations, they been collecting data on how effective it is, right?

 

[dapaterson]

So since the CAF has been funding this program for generations, they been collecting data on how effective it is, right?

You must be new here

 

[Kilted]

Many CIC/COATS members are ex-P Res/Reg F CAF members. They stayed in due to love of the service. Taking away their entitlement to a CAF uniform and accoutrements would likely have a devastating effect on recruiting and retention. I used to work in DGRC and found their D&D was not all that bad on the whole. Hegseth is just cherry picking to make himself feel better.

This would not effect non-CIC Coats. There could be allowances given for those with prior service to continue to wear the uniform. That being said, I really have a hard time believing that about half the CIC have prior military service.

 

[Kilted]

I don't think anyone is tracking the numbers, be glad to be proven wrong. Sending out a simple google form with about 5-7 questions to each member would give you an idea. I think it's a Stat that the recruiting arm could easily collect, with 1-3 questions with tick boxes linked to a field, to allow data collection.

Except for the fact that most Cadets are advised to never admit that they were ever a cadet once they join the CAF.

 

[markppcli]

Except for the fact that most Cadets are advised to never admit that they were ever a cadet once they join the CAF.

Every former cadet I work with must have missed that memo.

 

[MilEME09]

Given how heavily the program changed in the 90s, and early 00's, does the program need to stay under the CAF? or should it be moved to the civilian side of DND?

alternatively do we set new standards for the program including fitness that must be achieved in order to ensure setting healthy examples, as well as making sure instructors can keep up physically with the programs, and our intent for them?

 

[McG]

if they are going to stay commissioned officers, require them to have university degrees and complete BMOQ like every other officer in the CAF.

Why? There is no bona fide occupational requirement for CIC to meet universality of service, learn warfighting skills, nor have a degree (but each of these would impose a cost on the institution). I see no operational need for anything being proposed here. It just an emotional need to make an out group look different. Does the status quo hurt peoples feelings? Does it cause people to feel insecure in their own social status?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Except for the fact that most Cadets are advised to never admit that they were ever a cadet once they join the CAF.

I think a Cadet should be proud of their service, just not to be stupid about it, once they join the Regs/Res. Given the fact they are 18/19 at that time, knowing how to do that well is hard. But then according to number of stories, their age peers are drinking themselves silly, marrying strippers and getting into car loans they can't afford.
I council Cadets going into the military, not to hide or boast about it, be quietly proud of it and use your knowledge to help your platoon/team do well. I know one Regional Director who uses Cadet experience as an indicator of likley being a good choice as an employee.

 

[Kilted]

Why? There is no bona fide occupational requirement for CIC to meet universality of service, learn warfighting skills, nor have a degree (but each of these would impose a cost on the institution). I see no operational need for anything being proposed here. It just an emotional need to make an out group look different. Does the status quo hurt peoples feelings? Does it cause people to feel insecure in their own social status?

Then they don't need a commission to do their job

 

[Kilted]

Every former cadet I work with must have missed that memo.

You have probably worked with many more former cadets then you realize then.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Why? There is no bona fide occupational requirement for CIC to meet universality of service, learn warfighting skills, nor have a degree (but each of these would impose a cost on the institution). I see no operational need for anything being proposed here. It just an emotional need to make an out group look different. Does the status quo hurt peoples feelings? Does it cause people to feel insecure in their own social status?

The CIC program is struggling with recruiting, partly as it can take 1-2 years to get into uniform (It took them 2 years to process my paperwork, and only lost it twice) to become a Civilian Instructor, which entitles me to 2.5 days of Officer Cadet pay per month from the unit budget. A RCSU event might add a extra day of pay here and there. The 3 CIC officers in my unit spend most of their time fighting the bureaucratic beast. Leaving two CI's to supervise the Cadets, who have organized the classes and teach the material.

There has been a drive to remove more military knowledge from the program and divorce it from the CAF (but not it's funding). I am hoping that there is more military related training in the future and Cadets that turn 15 might be offered a path to assist them getting into the CAF.

 

[YZT580]

Then they don't need a commission to do their job

yeah they do. The cadet programme introduces young people to the military, to the application of discipline (possibly for the first time) and hopefully to a potential career. They are also taught teamwork and the value of community. Interaction between leaders and cadets is patterned after the military: military means officers. When you salute, you salute the uniform, not the person. When you encounter a colonel on the street and he is in civvies you do not salute. So to my mind the rank goes hand in hand with the leadership function. Wendell Fertig is the best case I can think of for rank: a lieutenant colonel who promoted himself to general in order to have the face needed to command the Filipinos.

And who cares how many cadets become regular forces. Consider it an investment in Canada's future. Years back I was a civilian instructor in Hamilton whilst I was posted there. I saw the difference.

 

[McG]

Then they don't need a commission to do their job

Maybe they do, maybe not, but why does their having it hurt you so?