Do we need Cadets? Should they be military/uniformed? (split from Trump administration 2024-2028)

[Jarnhamar]

Why?


A uniform & a commission were not sufficient BFOR for the Reg F, and that is not going to be a sufficient threshold for CIC. A BFOR for a fitness threshold must be tied to a physical requirement of the job.


Doggedly demanding a fitness test without being able to articulate a legitimate BFOR starts giving the impression this is not about a physical job requirement. Constantly pointing to commissioning scrolls and uniforms as substantiation for fitness testing suggests this is about aesthetics. Whinging about CIC demanding respect or thinking they are one of us shows the real concern separating the out-group from the in-group. So, in the absence of arguments fully based in legitimate BFOR (and so far only one proponent has offered thoughts in that direction), the hurt feelings are the only argument that I can discern from most proponents of this idea.

You’re repeatedly assigning emotional motives to people who disagree with you. Looks like ad hominem dismissal dressed up like a legitimate attempt at discussion.


Cadet officers are paid to supervise and lead cadets. I'm not sure what your experience working with cadets is but they're some real hard chargers.

Someone morbidly obese isn't hoping on a bicycle to ride through Algonquin park with the kids, and they're not jumping into kayaks with them either. Sailing and dog fighting in a glider as well.

The young lady getting airlifted off a Yosemite trail afer a 2 mile hike is a good example.

CIC don't need to go 20 meter rushes or sandbag lifts for their job. It 's still a good to have some sort of fitness standard for them.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

dog fighting in a glider as well.

You learn something new everyday on this site: I was not aware that the Air cadets learned dog fighting skills when getting their glider pilot wings.

 

[McG]

You’re repeatedly assigning emotional motives to people who disagree with you. Looks like ad hominem dismissal dressed up like a legitimate attempt at discussion.

I welcome you (the collective proponents of de-militarizing the CIC) to prove me wrong. Stop talking about rank, uniform, and commissioning scrolls as if they were BFORs, and present your case and present your case exclusively in physical job requirements (and you personally are getting there) and break this down into specific measurable performance requirements. That's when we can move from feelings based advocacy to have a legitimate discussion on the merits of various proposals.

I think this issue is we have created tiers in our ranks, commissioned an non. With a lower tiers given the same privileges and honors without the same level being expected of them.

It is not clear to me what you are saying here.

I like the UK method, now that I have learned something about it. I think its a good compromise.

The UK system operates under a different legal framework. That's not just the fact that our NDA creates the requirement for CIC to be CAF and include officers. Because CIC are CAF, the CDS can issue orders that they must follow. If we civilianize the CIC, the ability for CAF to issue orders is gone. What does that change cost the CAF and what does it cost the cadet program?

Someone morbidly obese isn't hoping on a bicycle to ride through Algonquin park with the kids, and they're not jumping into kayaks with them either. Sailing and dog fighting in a glider as well.

The young lady getting airlifted off a Yosemite trail afer a 2 mile hike is a good example.

CIC don't need to go 20 meter rushes or sandbag lifts for their job. It 's still a good to have some sort of fitness standard for them.

This is good. This is the direction we need to take the conversation. Now what are the defensible quantifiables that can be pulled from this?

 

[dapaterson]

They literally have to, every year.

While there are lawful orders in place for all Reg F members to complete a FORCE test annually, compliance is surprisingly low. Last time I looked (just before APS) the numbers were (roughly) 65% with a valid test, 15% medically excused, and 20% without a valid test.

 

[Halifax Tar]

While there are lawful orders in place for all Reg F members to complete a FORCE test annually, compliance is surprisingly low. Last time I looked (just before APS) the numbers were (roughly) 65% with a valid test, 15% medically excused, and 20% without a valid test.

The 15% is largely untouchable. Trust me, as an MOC Advisor, MELs have become the bane of my existence.

At present, 57.2% of my 250 positions are either vacant or occupied by personnel whom I cannot employ operationally. Right now, I am conducting a detailed review of every member on MELs within my positions to ensure their MELs are current and have not expired.

Frankly, it is alarming how many Unit Chiefs and Coxswains I am having to contact to inform them that they have members with expired MELs that need to be either renewed or removed from the system as soon as possible.

As for the remaining 20%, I see that as a leadership issue. The situation above is a good example. MM is a valuable tool, but only if we use it properly and consistently.

 

[Haggis]

While there are lawful orders in place for all Reg F members to complete a FORCE test annually, compliance is surprisingly low. Last time I looked (just before APS) the numbers were (roughly) 65% with a valid test, 15% medically excused, and 20% without a valid test.

When I was in each member was required to complete the FORCE test any time within the FY. This explained why the gyms at 101 and Coventry were always packed between January and March with members either training for a last-minute FORCE test or attempting a New Years resolution.

Is this still the case? Or, like where I am now, for example, we have to requalify on firearms once per year and our anniversary date is the date we were first certified.

 

[McG]

Is this still the case? Or, like where I am now, for example, we have to requalify on firearms once per year and our anniversary date is the date we were first certified.

Current expectation is that you must re-pass the test before the anniversary of your last successful test. Gone are the days when you could take a test on 01 April, and then 729 days later take a test on 31 Mar.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I welcome you (the collective proponents of de-militarizing the CIC) to prove me wrong. Stop talking about rank, uniform, and commissioning scrolls as if they were BFORs, and present your case and present your case exclusively in physical job requirements (and you personally are getting there) and break this down into specific measurable performance requirements. That's when we can move from feelings based advocacy to have a legitimate discussion on the merits of various proposals.

I think we need to stop using arguments like "it’s in the NDA so it has to be" and assume the NDA and our policies can change, so we can have a true philosophical discussion.

Legitimate question for you. The CAF’s mission is to "defend Canada and advance the safety, security, and prosperity of Canadians when and wherever required."

How does the CIC fit into that mission statement?

For the record, I am a big proponent of the cadets and was myself issued of the cadet program.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If you laid on a fitness test based around the actual job of the CIC and had a 25% fail rate, are you going to let go of someone that has 15 years of experience, with no replacement and possibility of the Corp being shut down because they can't find enough adults to take part? Because that is the reality of many of the Corps. Here is the AI response to what is required to maintain a Corp:


Key Viability and Operational Requirements

1. Personnel & Leadership Thresholds

• 
  
  • Cadet Strength: A minimum active enrollment of 30 registered cadets is typically required to ensure peer interaction, team dynamics, and operational efficiency. Individual cadets must remain legally eligible (residents of Canada, aged 12 to 18). [1, 2]
  • Adult Leadership (CIC Officers): A minimum of four commissioned officers from the Cadet Instructors Cadre (or the Cadet Organization Administration and Training Service) are required to manage administration, safety, logistics, and training instruction. [1, 2]
  • Support Staff: Units are often supplemented by Civilian Instructors (CIs) and screened adult volunteers. [1, 2]

2. Civilian Sponsorship & Community Support

• 
  
  • The League Partner: Every corps must be co-sponsored by a local community committee affiliated with one of the national civilian leagues: the Navy League of Canada, the Army Cadet League of Canada, or the Air Cadet League of Canada. [1, 2]
  • Obligations: The sponsor is responsible for providing suitable local accommodations (parade squares, storage, classrooms), supporting local training aids, and spearheading community fundraising to cover enhancements not fully funded by the DND. [1]

3. Training & Administrative Compliance

• 
  
  • Mandatory Program Delivery: Units must successfully deliver the national mandatory, complementary, and optional training programs established by the Commander, Canadian Cadet and Junior Canadian Rangers Group (CJCR Gp). [1]
  • Annual Reviews: The Commanding Officer of the RCSU evaluates every corps annually. This includes checking records in the national administration database (such as Fortress) and conducting an Annual Ceremonial Review (ACR). [1, 2]

 

[Haggis]

Current expectation is that you must re-pass the test before the anniversary of your last successful test. Gone are the days when you could take a test on 01 April, and then 729 days later take a test on 31 Mar.

That makes a lot more sense and prevents testing staff from having to deal with a plethora of last minute testing every year.

 

[Jarnhamar]

If you laid on a fitness test based around the actual job of the CIC and had a 25% fail rate, are you going to let go of someone that has 15 years of experience, with no replacement and possibility of the Corp being shut down because they can't find enough adults to take part? Because that is the reality of many of the Corps.

We don't let CAF membes with 5 years go for failing the fitness test, nevermind 15 or 20.

Commission scrolls, uniforms, fitness. It all comes down to a single point of failure. Would change sufficiently destroy the cadets.

A PT standard for new incoming members could be good incentive to begin changing the culture. Safer for the kids too.