Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[Furniture]

So if today's professionals in the Canadian army are having little faith in Canada's fyrd, maybe its because the Canadian fyrd is neither well trained, equipped, motivated or led. One doesn't have to think hard about where the fault for that lies.

I bet you didn't expect I'd agree, but I do.

The Reserves are poorly equipped because the "fyrd" doesn't care... If we are using a historical example, the P Res is more like low quality "house men", or Huscarls if you prefer. Guys who get extra mead at the banquet, but don't merit the expense of mail and swords in the eyes of the public...

The actual "fyrd" is the general population, not the reserves... The average Canadian is not trained, nor interested in training to fight our next war. That problem lies at the federal government level, not with the CAF.

I'm not against a strong reserve, I'm against selling the idea of a reserve on the cheap as an alternative to professionals.

 

[Kirkhill]

If the school system doesn't tell tales of Hengest and Horsa, of Danegeld and Praetorians then you will never motivate your fyrd.

If the government doesn't engage the fyrd, train it, equip it, exercise it, employ it, then the fyrd will not exist.

And part of that effort has to be supplied by a permanent corps of teachers.

....

PS the Huscarls were the Saxon Praetorians. The jarl's permanently engaged fighting tail. As noted the Fyrd was every male that could carry a spear with some accounts describing the field age as being 12 years old.

 

[FJAG]

I bet you didn't expect I'd agree, but I do.

The Reserves are poorly equipped because the "fyrd" doesn't care... If we are using a historical example, the P Res is more like low quality "house men", or Huscarls if you prefer. Guys who get extra mead at the banquet, but don't merit the expense of mail and swords in the eyes of the public...

The actual "fyrd" is the general population, not the reserves... The average Canadian is not trained, nor interested in training to fight our next war. That problem lies at the federal government level, not with the CAF.

I'm not against a strong reserve, I'm against selling the idea of a reserve on the cheap as an alternative to professionals.

I'm glad we agree, albeit we disagree a bit on what a "fyrd" is. It never was the general population - women, and slaves weren't part of it (although in some cultures they did participate.)

There were several types of Anglo-Saxon fyrds and the the rules that applied from time to time changed significantly. Some required all freemen to be liable to be called out, some only certain leaders with a certain amount of retainers, some would be required to serve a limited number of days in a fighting season, some remained back at home to rest or form a home guard and so on. I view the "fyrd" more as the "army" raised at any given time under whatever rules or customs were in place at that time.

Similarly in pre Marian Rome, the population at large was not subject to the military levy (delectus) in time of war, only certain individuals were liable to be called up in a year of war (principally land holding freemen aged 17-46 with a minimum wealth threshold) and only some of those eligible individuals that were selected to be part of the military levy. Poorer people, who had no stake in defending the state, were not eligible to serve until Marius changed the laws and allowed all citizens (and then non citizens as well) to join the army. The concept of "professional" armies was to shift the burden of service onto the poor and indigent rather than the landed farmers, craftsmen and slaves who kept the country running.

Here's the thing. The "fyrd" is that group of individuals obligated to provide military service to the state. In a voluntary service state the only ones that are obliged to serve are those who have volunteered to and who are bound by their terms of service to go when called.

I don't disagree that Canada's public at large generally had, and many still have, a low interest in the details of defence. This is why I do not hold them liable for the state of the reserves or the CAF as a whole. I put the blame square on the backs of military leadership which wastes resources, including people, of the considerable budgets they do receive.

Our version of "professional" armies has its genesis in the 1950s NATO response to the USSR build up. The "forces in being" concept of a voluntary CAF contingent that needed to be in Europe from day 1 resulted in the flipping of the corresponding sizes of the regular v reserve forces. As the situation changed the CAF didn't. The concept of an "Army FOR Tomorrow" became a far lower and distant priority to the need to squeeze every PY out of the budget to man the "Army FOR Today." The failure to properly fund, equip and train the reserves led to their relegation to individual augmentees and a general distain by the regular force of the reserve's capabilities. Capability decline became a death spiral which is only staved off by some serious dedication amongst individual reservists themselves with a bit of assistance from a few regulars.

Sorry. I come at this issue with both regular and reserve service and while I appreciate the general public's indifference, I put the blame squarely on the shoulders of leadership. Most of the issues that need fixing is within their powers to do. And let me just add this: If a CDS or CCA can't convince the government of the rightness of his vision or the seriousness of the problem then it becomes their duty to resign, make way for someone who can, and add their voice to the public debate.

Anyway. It's long past my bedtime. And incidentally what the hell is going on in Star Trek: Strange New Worlds? Have all the writers and directors lost it? Dance numbers? Puppets? and more Q nonsense? What the hell?

 

[Furniture]

'm glad we agree, albeit we disagree a bit on what a "fyrd" is. It never was the general population - women, and slaves weren't part of it (although in some cultures they did participate.)

Fair, I wasn't precise enough. In reality, the farm folk weren't particularly martial though... A big farm lad makes a strong spearman, but not much of a professional soldier.

There were several types of Anglo-Saxon fyrds and the the rules that applied from time to time changed significantly. Some required all freemen to be liable to be called out, some only certain leaders with a certain amount of retainers, some would be required to serve a limited number of days in a fighting season, some remained back at home to rest or form a home guard and so on. I view the "fyrd" more as the "army" raised at any given time under whatever rules or customs were in place at that time.

100%, and most of the times the service was provided by professional/semi-professional troops who later became famous as "yeoman".

It was always easier to pay someone else to do the soldering, and collect the harvest without them.

Similarly in pre Marian Rome, the population at large was not subject to the military levy (delectus) in time of war, only certain individuals were liable to be called up in a year of war (principally land holding freemen aged 17-46 with a minimum wealth threshold) and only some of those eligible individuals that were selected to be part of the military levy. Poorer people, who had no stake in defending the state, were not eligible to serve until Marius changed the laws and allowed all citizens (and then non citizens as well) to join the army. The concept of "professional" armies was to shift the burden of service onto the poor and indigent rather than the landed farmers, craftsmen and slaves who kept the country running.

My understanding is that the "Marian" reforms are somewhat contested, and perhaps the rules had changed long before he came to power. His rise to power was contested by Sulla, so who knows how it all went down.

Here's the thing. The "fyrd" is that group of individuals obligated to provide military service to the state. In a voluntary service state the only ones that are obliged to serve are those who have volunteered to and who are bound by their terms of service to go when called.

Agreed, but that doesn't actually reflect the concept of a fyrd... Back in the day, there was no opting out. If the King/Duke/Count/Baron decided you needed to serve, you served. So unlike out current P Res, there were real consequences for not meeting obligations.

don't disagree that Canada's public at large generally had, and many still have, a low interest in the details of defence. This is why I do not hold them liable for the state of the reserves or the CAF as a whole. I put the blame square on the backs of military leadership which wastes resources, including people, of the considerable budgets they do receive.

So you absolve the fyrd of their obligations? Are the public too dumb to understand their task?, or more accurately, has the apparatus of government not told them that there is nothing to worry about?

Our version of "professional" armies has its genesis in the 1950s NATO response to the USSR build up. The "forces in being" concept of a voluntary CAF contingent that needed to be in Europe from day 1 resulted in the flipping of the corresponding sizes of the regular v reserve forces. As the situation changed the CAF didn't. The concept of an "Army FOR Tomorrow" became a far lower and distant priority to the need to squeeze every PY out of the budget to man the "Army FOR Today." The failure to properly fund, equip and train the reserves led to their relegation to individual augmentees and a general distain by the regular force of the reserve's capabilities. Capability decline became a death spiral which is only staved off by some serious dedication amongst individual reservists themselves with a bit of assistance from a few regulars.

I 100% disagree, and the Romans did too. There was the comitatenses, and limitanei... Each served a purpose, but each served in a different context.

I think it's easy to declare that today is different, but in the end the ideas translate quite well... Despite @Kirkhill continuously misinterpreting the lessons.

The army for today will always, and has always won over the nebulous notion of the "reserves" for tomorrow. The crude way to explain it is "the check is in the mail", or "I'll pull out".... Nobody with more than a few weeks knowledge/experience trusts it.

Anyway. It's long past my bedtime.

Now that I'm on the left coast again, I shall endeavor to reply within the lessre "eastern" time zones.... From sunny/cool/perfect Victoria.

 

[ueo]

How in the hell did we go down this rabbit hole? What's the end result? Positive suggestions or a Tim Leary world?

 

[lenaitch]

Most such laws are also likely pre-Charter and would fail on a challenge under section 7, not to be saved by section 1.

Interesting article from 2021. I suspect the law has not been tested.

How the government can still forcibly conscript you to fight forest fires

Up until the 1960s, B.C. often fought forest fires by press-ganging random civilians

nationalpost.com

A quick Google search seemed to suggest that only BC still has this provision. I can't imagine why a fire boss would want this.

 

[lenaitch]

That's it then. Canada can be defended by a longbow in every front closet and practiced every Sunday after church.

 

[RangerRay]

Interesting article from 2021. I suspect the law has not been tested.

How the government can still forcibly conscript you to fight forest fires

Up until the 1960s, B.C. often fought forest fires by press-ganging random civilians

nationalpost.com

A quick Google search seemed to suggest that only BC still has this provision. I can't imagine why a fire boss would want this.

AFAIK, other provinces have similar legislation. I would have looked at those sections again to see if there are similar weasel words like “with lawful reason” to tell a forest officer to get bent. In practice, ministries are rightfully not willing to go there for all the reasons stated with regards to being trained and qualified to do the job. No fire boss wants to take on the liability of press ganging untrained tourists or barflies into hazardous work.

I think the closest it comes to that is calling up retired folks to do planning or logistics or act as fire guardians, but usually all you have to do to get them to come back is wave a fat cheque in their face and they’ll come running back.

 

[FJAG]

How in the hell did we go down this rabbit hole? What's the end result? Positive suggestions or a Tim Leary world?

This forum has an informative aspect and an entertainment one. Every once in a while one has to dip ones toes into the entertainment side.

Interesting article from 2021. I suspect the law has not been tested.

How the government can still forcibly conscript you to fight forest fires

Up until the 1960s, B.C. often fought forest fires by press-ganging random civilians

nationalpost.com

A quick Google search seemed to suggest that only BC still has this provision. I can't imagine why a fire boss would want this.

There are other laws that deal with "conscripted" service. See, for example, the Federal Emergencies Act and look at ss 8(1)(d); 19(1)(d); 30(1)(e) and 40(1) but see s 40(2) re conscripted service in the CAF under a War Emergency.

Note too that there is nothing stopping the parliament of Canada instituting military conscription. In both WW1 and WW2 conscription was initiated by legislation (the Military Service Act 1917 and the National Resources Mobilization Act 1940). The Emergencies Act basically provides powers to the cabinet to do things by regulations and directives in various situations including a "war emergency" without the need to go to parliament. Military conscription isn't one of those powers but that doesn't preclude parliament, as a whole, reinstituting it with a new law.

 

[FJAG]

My understanding is that the "Marian" reforms are somewhat contested, and perhaps the rules had changed long before he came to power. His rise to power was contested by Sulla, so who knows how it all went down.

Continuing down my foray into the entertainment line, there are dozens of books on Marius and Sulla. It was Marius who "reformed" the army by eliminating the land owning requirements for military service and instituted the recruiting of the capite censi. Sulla subsequently used the transformed army to defeat his political enemies and initiate a civil war.

I've always liked Colleen McCullough's series of 7 books - Masters of Rome - which concentrate on Julius Caesar but span the entire Marian/Sullan/last days of the Republic era. She did extensive research and wrote very detailed accounts of the time. Here's a warning. One reviewer called the first book:

"It's thick and sometimes plodding, but Colleen McCullough has come through with a good one again with The First Man in Rome."

Another:

"Evoking with impeccably researched, meticulous detail the political and social fabric of Rome in the last days of the Republic, McCullough demonstrates a thoroughgoing understanding of an age in which birth and blood lines determine one's fate, and the auctoritas and dignitas of the Roman family mean more than any personal relationship...As usual, McCullough tells a good story, describing political intrigue, social infighting and bloody battles with authoritative skill, interpolating domestic drama and even a soupcon of romance."

"Thick and plodding" they may be at times but they're a great way to learn Roman history if you don't want to read the six volumes that make up Edward Gibbon's "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire." (Which incidentally makes you wonder who will do the six volume set of the "History of the Decline and Fall of the American Empire")

 

[Kirkhill]

Here's a thought:

If you continually tell your population that there is no threat, that there is nothing they can do about it anyway, and that fighting is evil they will be unlikely to support any kind of armed force, professional or otherwise.

 

[MacNav63]

Continuing down my foray into the entertainment line, there are dozens of books on Marius and Sulla. It was Marius who "reformed" the army by eliminating the land owning requirements for military service and instituted the recruiting of the capite censi. Sulla subsequently used the transformed army to defeat his political enemies and initiate a civil war.

I've always liked Colleen McCullough's series of 7 books - Masters of Rome - which concentrate on Julius Caesar but span the entire Marian/Sullan/last days of the Republic era. She did extensive research and wrote very detailed accounts of the time. Here's a warning. One reviewer called the first book:



Another:



"Thick and plodding" they may be at times but they're a great way to learn Roman history if you don't want to read the six volumes that make up Edward Gibbon's "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire." (Which incidentally makes you wonder who will do the six volume set of the "History of the Decline and Fall of the American Empire")

Hmmm, someone been listening to the latest series of the Rest is History…?

 

[FJAG]

Hmmm, someone been listening to the latest series of the Rest is History…?

Actually, no. I had never heard of the program and I generally dislike Podcasts (I can read and assimilate faster than most people can speak). Now that I know about it I might just give it a listen.

I have a general interest in Roman history and Roman-based historical fiction - I've read and quite like the stuff that Simon Turney writes. He's quite prolific.

If you ever want to see parallels between Canada's economics and its peoples' and governments' attitude about financing the military one should take a deep dive into Roman history. Caesar's wars against Gaul was a text-book example of using war to finance both government and Caesar's pockets.

 

[MacNav63]

Actually, no. I had never heard of the program and I generally dislike Podcasts (I can read and assimilate faster than most people can speak). Now that I know about it I might just give it a listen.

I have a general interest in Roman history and Roman-based historical fiction - I've read and quite like the stuff that Simon Turney writes. He's quite prolific.

If you ever want to see parallels between Canada's economics and its peoples' and governments' attitude about financing the military one should take a deep dive into Roman history. Caesar's wars against Gaul was a text-book example of using war to finance both government and Caesar's pockets.

Ah, well I highly recommend it. As it happens they’re just wrapping up a 4-part series on Marius and Sulla, with the last episode being released this week, along with a couple of subscriber-only bonus episodes. It’s the only podcast to which I subscribe (which also gives me early access to the episodes, so I’ve actually completed the series). The co-hosts bring a great combination of learning, wit and irreverence to their topics. Give it a listen if you get the chance.

 

[FormerEnlisted]

Fyrd

Duguþ eal gecrong, wlonc bi weall.
Wyrd bith ful aread.
----
Eald enta geweorc.
Wyrd bith ful aread.

I sometimes wonder if the youth of today will offer the same lament for the institutions we are leaving them. Certainly parts of army.ca feel like this when reading very old posts.

And then I remember that my sons will likely be issued the same kit I was and am reassured by the cost saving of them not having to rewrite the name in the sleeping bag liner.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Ah, well I highly recommend it. As it happens they’re just wrapping up a 4-part series on Marius and Sulla, with the last episode being released this week, along with a couple of subscriber-only bonus episodes. It’s the only podcast to which I subscribe (which also gives me early access to the episodes, so I’ve actually completed the series). The co-hosts bring a great combination of learning, wit and irreverence to their topics. Give it a listen if you get the chance.

I highly recommend Mike Duncan's History of Rome podcasts which takes you from of the founding of Rome in 800 BCE to the final fall of the Western Empire in the 5th century CE.

And as can be expected when dealing with such a long period of history the series clocks in at approximately 200 episodes.

 

[Kirkhill]

Duguþ eal gecrong, wlonc bi weall.
Wyrd bith ful aread.
----
Eald enta geweorc.
Wyrd bith ful aread.

I sometimes wonder if the youth of today will offer the same lament for the institutions we are leaving them. Certainly parts of army.ca feel like this when reading very old posts.

And then I remember that my sons will likely be issued the same kit I was and am reassured by the cost saving of them not having to rewrite the name in the sleeping bag liner.

I am a bit of a wanderer myself.

Wyrd bith ful araed.

 

[FormerEnlisted]

I am a bit of a wanderer myself.

Wyrd bith ful araed.

Just for fun I translated our oath of enlistment into old English (with modernized spelling). Aside from a few substitutions, its phonetically comprehensible.

"Ik do fastliche swerian that ik wille beon hold ond beran treowe hyldo to his maygenthrymme Kyninge Karle them thriddan, his yrfeweardum ond eftergangan efter dome. Swa helpe me God."

Cheat sheet:
Hyldo (meaning one who 'leans' but lost to modern english) : allegiance
Maygenthrymme (power-glory, main-thrummer) : majesty
Yrfeweardum (inheritance wardens, or via Slavic 'robot guards'!) : heirs
Eftergangan (after go'ers) : successors

4 words in a 1000 years is pretty impressive. Technically 3 because 'after go'ers' just sounds archaic. It would be great if the Crown embraced this cultural continuity as a hallmark of honour. If we are going to design new weapons classes lets give them inspirational names.

 

[lenaitch]

This forum has an informative aspect and an entertainment one. Every once in a while one has to dip ones toes into the entertainment side.




There are other laws that deal with "conscripted" service. See, for example, the Federal Emergencies Act and look at ss 8(1)(d); 19(1)(d); 30(1)(e) and 40(1) but see s 40(2) re conscripted service in the CAF under a War Emergency.

Note too that there is nothing stopping the parliament of Canada instituting military conscription. In both WW1 and WW2 conscription was initiated by legislation (the Military Service Act 1917 and the National Resources Mobilization Act 1940). The Emergencies Act basically provides powers to the cabinet to do things by regulations and directives in various situations including a "war emergency" without the need to go to parliament. Military conscription isn't one of those powers but that doesn't preclude parliament, as a whole, reinstituting it with a new law.

You are correct that a government's power to issues regulations is quite broad but, in relation to the immediate topic of conscripting citizens to fight wildfires, a province would have to request the federal government to invoke its Emergencies Act. I took a quick scan of Ontario's Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act and nothing really jumped at me, except that emergency orders issued by Cabinet include:

12. Authorizing, but not requiring, any person, or any person of a class of persons, to render services of a type that that person, or a person of that class, is reasonably qualified to provide.

There is no specific 'press gang' provision in the Province's Wildland Fire Management Act (enacted in 1996).

 

[PuckChaser]

I don't even know what to thread move those last posts to as they're so off topic that they don't even have a topic title that would fit.