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Canada to Spend $5.0Bil on AEW Aircraft (Saab Globaleye)

The B version is a huge gift to allies. So many countries are now able to have 5th Gen carrier aviation because of it.

And the prospect of a runway independent force.

Back to the original premise of the RAF


Apparently the deployment site in the car park below the brewery was quite popular.




Fascinating tale of bringing a new technology into the field



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This was in addition to helicopters and CVRTs transported by Hercs.
 
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On that note, start steeling yourselves for a Gripen announcement.

Until the U.S. ITARs the Gripen and Saab has to be content with GlobalEye and *CCA and *Dassault does a site recce in Mirabel for some new-build Rafale Ms.

The F35 is all about compromises, mostly for the USMC.

Eliminate the VTOL version and you have a cheaper and more reliable aircraft.

The USN needs to rein in their infantry.
At least the USN turned down the Corps’ request for a ‘gloves and toques’ cockpit storage bin…
 
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Until the U.S. ITARs the Gripen and Saab has to be content with GlobalEye and CCa and Rafael does a site recce in Mirabel for some new-build Rafale Ms.


At least the USN turned down the Corps’ request for a ‘gloves and toques’ cockpit storage bin…

Pretty sure the Rafale is made by Dassault (which already has a Montreal office, BTW). Rafael is an Israeli defense builder. As for ITAR, unless I am mistaken, the only ITAR item in the Gripen is the GE gaz turbine. I know it's a redesign matter, but if the US blocks such a sale, then, were I SAAB, to be able to continue market around the world without fear, I would redesign around a new engine, possibly Rolls Royce to keep all in the European family.
 
The B version is a huge gift to allies. So many countries are now able to have 5th Gen carrier aviation because of it.
Less payload. Less range. Increased vulnerability to other variants in the family to make weight.

An entirely separate VTOL platform would have been a better choice.
 
Pretty sure the Rafale is made by Dassault (which already has a Montreal office, BTW). Rafael is an Israeli defense builder. As for ITAR, unless I am mistaken, the only ITAR item in the Gripen is the GE gaz turbine. I know it's a redesign matter, but if the US blocks such a sale, then, were I SAAB, to be able to continue market around the world without fear, I would redesign around a new engine, possibly Rolls Royce to keep all in the European family.
Yes, double-tapped the type, pauvre compagnie…mes excuses. Corrigé, merci.
 
As for ITAR, unless I am mistaken, the only ITAR item in the Gripen is the GE gaz turbine. I know it's a redesign matter, but if the US blocks such a sale, then, were I SAAB, to be able to continue market around the world without fear, I would redesign around a new engine, possibly Rolls Royce to keep all in the European family.
You are mistaken. The avionics are also ITAR controlled.

Saab has also specifically ruled out redesigning the plane for a new engine. And the Rolls Royce engine proposed by armchair types doesn't exist, it was suggested for an Indian jet decades ago, was not selected, and has since been forgotten about.
 
It was a field of two. The only possible outcomes were first and second. Coming in second in a two horse race is not an accomplishment.
I think a valid question is; How much of the competition was genuine, and how much was the RCAF doing what all elements do, and rigging the criteria?

Its pretty easy to do, just toss in a few "critical" elements you know only one binder has... E.g. We must absolutely have a triple transducer barometer for flight safety! Meanwhile, most brands make a double transducer barometer, because that is the accepted standard in most of the world... So in the end, the one brand that makes a triple transducer barometer wins, and nobody else even bothers to waste time on us.


How much of the F-35 win is based on the MADL system, or similar capabilities, not even used by the F-22? The aircraft so special nobody else was allowed to buy it?
 
Without breaking OPSEC, I'll say the evaluation was fair and extremely liberal. Bidders were given mission profiles to simulate. They got to choose weapons, support kit (like pods), etc. They just had to include everything in their bid. I don't think most other governments were this generous to bidders. And the Gripen still had an atrocious technical score.

Eurofighter and Dassault were disqualified/pulled out because of CANUS/NORAD certification. Run the competition again without these requirements and I expect Gripen to be bottom of the pile again.
 
I am a big of directed buys - providing it makes sense.
What should never happen is buying something solely to buy it.
At a recent forum one of the GOFOs asked the audience: What is the biggest threat to Canada over the next 5 years? Russia/China or the US Economic threat?

I assure the answer wasn't 50/50 in that room and not favourable to the place you live.

They then went on to say that while they understand that many of us feel obligations to get the best kit or we're not happy with current politics, we need to understand our obligations as Canadians first.

I don't think this is just Canada. I think you will see substantial effort beyond Canada to go as ITAR free as possible. We're all tired of this shit. And we know it doesn't just end with the current POTUS. Why give the next jackass even more leverage?

Edit:

I say this as someone who wants to see Panthers with the Maple Leaf Roundel on them. But I can appreciate that the long term trajectory requires us to think about more than just the best kit. There's no point buying the best kit if we dont' have a country left to defend.

Also, something to point out too. Same GOFO made the point that even a small drop in GDP would see the CAF's budget halved. So what's the point of helping to buy US kit, when the economics of that ends up shrinking the CAF?

Personally, my only gripe is against how shitty the Gripen is and their used car salesman routine of promising anything and everything. I actually have come around to thinking that the F-35 order should be cut to 70 frames or less and our GCAP commitments accelerated. Along with CCAs. And all ITAR free thanks to our upcoming partnerships with Europe and Asia.
 
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At a recent forum one of the GOFOs asked the audience: What is the biggest threat to Canada over the next 5 years? Russia/China or the US Economic threat?

I assure the answer wasn't 50/50 in that room and not favourable to the place you live.

They then went on to say that while they understand that many of us feel obligations to get the best kit or we're not happy with current politics, we need to understand our obligations as Canadians first.
I’d argue that the CAF has the obligation to Canadians to provide the most credible defense force as possible.


I don't think this is just Canada. I think you will see substantial effort beyond Canada to go as ITAR free as possible. We're all tired of this shit. And we know it doesn't just end with the current POTUS. Why give the next jackass even more leverage?

Everyone gets angry about ITARs, but very few folks understand why it was instituted.

It isn’t USTAR, the I is International.
ITAR was brought in as the UN was working on legislation that would have crippled Western Defense Industries, and ignored the nations who already ignore End User requirements etc.

Every country working on unique Defense technology has a legal requirement to safeguard it from non qualified use/exploitation.

Some countries tend to ignore that.
 
I’d argue that the CAF has the obligation to Canadians to provide the most credible defense force as possible.

See my edit above. We won't be able to do that with a smaller economy, which is an outcome the CAF would contribute to by shipping defence dollars overseas (not just to the US). Also, the CAF won't have much credibility with the voting public if our perception of the threat is different from theirs. I get that Americans have forgotten how democracy works with their minority rule system, but that's not yet the case in Canada.
 
It isn’t USTAR, the I is International.
ITAR was brought in as the UN was working on legislation that would have crippled Western Defense Industries, and ignored the nations who already ignore End User requirements etc.

Every country working on unique Defense technology has a legal requirement to safeguard it from non qualified use/exploitation.

Some countries tend to ignore that.
Whatever the provenance of that, the reality is that the US wields ITAR as a significant lever. And after Trump, nobody trusts that Americans won't weaponize that leverage further. It'd be crazy to simply handwave that threat away. Why should the rest of the world have to suddenly worry about their defence systems everytime some voter in Bumfuck, Ohio thinks the price of eggs is too high?

Is American kit better? Undoubtedly. Is European or Asian kit terrible? No. We can accept the risk of a bit less capability and still keep the Dragonbear at bay. Paradoxically, relying less on the US, also deters Russia and China more because they know the US isn't needed for those countries to fight back.
 
Whatever the provenance of that, the reality is that the US wields ITAR as a significant lever. And after Trump, nobody trusts that Americans won't weaponize that leverage further. It'd be crazy to simply handwave that threat away. Why should the rest of the world have to suddenly worry about their defence systems everytime some voter in Bumfuck, Ohio thinks the price of eggs is too high?
My point was that Germany (when it isn’t illegally shipping stuff in nebulously marked ‘machine parts’ containers with questionable BoL’s) can be a worse partner in Defense issues -
Europeans are just as myopic as Americans, usually a little less crass and abrupt, but equally willing to bend Canada over.

The only way to be free free is have a robust defense industrial base, and Canadians predominantly chosen to allow that to die rather than spend money to allow Canada to be strong and free.


Is American kit better? Undoubtedly. Is European or Asian kit terrible? No. We can accept the risk of a bit less capability and still keep the Dragonbear at bay. Paradoxically, relying less on the US, also deters Russia and China more because they know the US isn't needed for those countries to fight back.
With an unlimited budget I’d opt for the Tiered approach, like Poland has, but always working for more Canadian content (but not at the expense of performance).

The biggest thing is being able to sustain combat operations without external support.
Which means independent domestic munitions, spares, and tech ownership/shared ownership.



Which is really why I spit on the majority of the elbows up crowd. There was zero excuse not to revitalize the Canadian domestic defense industrial base over a decade ago.

It was very clear since 2004 that VVP was trying to get the band back together, and Russia, China, and Iran where all actively involved in killing Canadians in Afghanistan.

But the vast majority of Canadians wanted to ignore that, have better healthcare etc
 
It does not matter who we buy our kit from, if they have ITAR or other agreements that we can not sell, deploy or use equipment elsewhere/ specific spots in the world then our hands get tied.
Look at Ukraine and the allies trying to ship them tanks, ammunition, munitions air defence etc early in the war.
This country wont allow their ammo to be sold to them, this country wont allow their outdated retired sold off to salvage yard tanks to be transferred to them. This country wont allow a computer system to be sold and the list went on and on. Not just with US ITAR but many European countries. Then all of a sudden everyone said F it. We need to get the equipment to them one way or another. It really is funny how million man army on your door step threatening you tends to make all those restrictions go away fairly quickly.

If the US were to say their engines wont be allowed for Canada to use in the Gripen then Canada builds their own. If the electronics in the avionics are not allowed then Canada builds their own. Maybe CAE limits what the US can use that is of their propriety, intellectual property. Then maybe the European and Canadian Defence industry starts to limit US Access to their knowledge and skills. (will put the hurt on them more then many of you would expect).

Korea stepped away and build their own defence industry using what they have access to and using what works from their allies. They have done pretty well for the past few years.

Whatever the provenance of that, the reality is that the US wields ITAR as a significant lever. And after Trump, nobody trusts that Americans won't weaponize that leverage further. It'd be crazy to simply handwave that threat away. Why should the rest of the world have to suddenly worry about their defence systems everytime some voter in Bumfuck, Ohio thinks the price of eggs is too high?

Is American kit better? Undoubtedly. Is European or Asian kit terrible? No. We can accept the risk of a bit less capability and still keep the Dragonbear at bay. Paradoxically, relying less on the US, also deters Russia and China more because they know the US isn't needed for those countries to fight back.
Is American Kit really better?
They usually end up buying or "hostile"collaborating with others to build their own kit. I would say the defence company alliances have provided the US with most if not all of their actual expertise from outside of the US for their better kit. The US has used and abused their "partners" for decades to better themselves. Often forcing the if you want to sell this item to us then we have to control the company. Remember We are the biggest buyer of this kit. So take our offer or leave it. In my opinion this has limited many to expand the bar, and or allow a cheaper process to be found.

All one has to do is look at the lack of ability for us to build munitions and their components on a large scale, the costs are prohibitive and the specialized parts are no longer in production. Some how we cant produce those parts, and produce them in any quantities.
Yet we are seeing Ukraine and Poland with their gloves pulled off making things happen, with the help of all the team. While the allies remove some restrictions, Ukraine and Poland are working between the lines and getting things done.

Then look at the US and their tactic of we want this tech right now for ourselves. We don't want to pay for it.
Where Israel has specifically partnered up with Ukraine for anti Drone and missile defence among a couple of things. When the US tried to step in Israel did it anyways.
 
and delay replacing the hornets even more.
I do find it interesting that we have not actually received any F35s yet. The US had stated a year or two ago that they had built a few in anticipation of sales so could provide immediate delivery if required.
We will more then likely buy the 65 or so F35s unless DT makes a Presidential decree otherwsie. The Military side of things seems to plugging along as are the defence agreements. I just wish the US could provide the F35 as promised.

As for new agreements of other equipment purchases time will tell. I think somehow we will buy the same equipment but it might come through General Dynamics Europe with an agreement to build some or all here. The US still gets their cut, Europe gets their cut and Canada gets to create jobs here while re tooling and Rearming.
 
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