Ottawa's sluggish bureaucracy leaves critical gaps in Canadian military ammo supply: AG

[dapaterson]

If a unit does not have reliable access to the ranges necessary for their training, then the responsible Level 1 needs to start changing roles of units to give them roles they can deliver on.

Perpetuating failure is not a command function.

 

[DeepaMenon]

Genuine question from a civvie: when the final allocation comes back that far off what was requested, does anyone track that gap year over year? Feels like exactly the data the OAG would want next time.

 

[childs56]

Not having 31% of your stock accounted for is a failure on leadership.
Not having an explanation of why you did not use allocated ammunition is again failure on leadership.
Some where someone has to be tracking this. I know when we returned small arms ammunition or large caliber munitions we always had to fill out why. Every bullet and projectile had to be accounted for.

We rarely ever returned product as we often were short on what we asked for and or required for the mission.

I remember in Bosnia we were told to expend all ammunition on a range day. We were rotating stocks. I opened up with the APT .50cal. Only to be told we didn't have any replacement and to only to fire the ball ammo. Whoops we had about 10 rounds left of APT. Dam it looked pretty good going down range.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

If a unit does not have reliable access to the ranges necessary for their training, then the responsible Level 1 needs to start changing roles of units to give them roles they can deliver on.

Perpetuating failure is not a command function.

I am talking about basic rifle and pistol ranges.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The organization's cultural preference for focusing on virtue signaling morale patches, and British Army style uniforms, vs. more battle readiness type logistics in general probably doesn't help much either...

Logistics isn't sexy. Operators are mesmerized by what's sexy. Operators are in charge.

Its fixable...

 

[ueo]

Just a minor aside, where are you warehousing all this stuff?

 

[Kirkhill]

I am talking about basic rifle and pistol ranges.

If we believe the Brit prescription is right then the demand would be for competence with pistol and carbine at 40m and under.

50m ranges should be a lot more easily accomplished than 500m ranges.

https://drooid.social/post/736351/general-walker-warns-troops-fight-from-0-40-metres/full-breakdown

How does the Tillotson facility at Windsor operate in practice?

 

[YZT580]

If we believe the Brit prescription is right then the demand would be for competence with pistol and carbine at 40m and under.

50m ranges should be a lot more easily accomplished than 500m ranges.

https://drooid.social/post/736351/general-walker-warns-troops-fight-from-0-40-metres/full-breakdown

How does the Tillotson facility at Windsor operate in practice?

You will be able to hear the screaming in Ottawa if they ever try to re-establish the range in Niagara: yet it is sitting there and available. It probably isn't the only one either. Used to service from London east towards Oakville: must be at least 6 years since they removed the berms.

 

[Kirkhill]

You will be able to hear the screaming in Ottawa if they ever try to re-establish the range in Niagara: yet it is sitting there and available. It probably isn't the only one either. Used to service from London east towards Oakville: must be at least 6 years since they removed the berms.

You might hear the screaming but the locals seem less likely to hear the range itself.

How many rounds before the suppressor has to be replaced?

 

[daftandbarmy]

If we believe the Brit prescription is right then the demand would be for competence with pistol and carbine at 40m and under.

50m ranges should be a lot more easily accomplished than 500m ranges.

https://drooid.social/post/736351/general-walker-warns-troops-fight-from-0-40-metres/full-breakdown

How does the Tillotson facility at Windsor operate in practice?

Ridiculous.

Accurate fire by individuals out to 300m, and sections out to 600m, as well as the CQB stuff is and always has been the Infantry's bread and butter.

Unless, of course, your focus is on attracting online gaming addicts (the majority of teenaged males) into the military.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

As an addendum: I once acted as a tour guide for very senior public service ADM (Mat) staff during a live fire range. The subject of ammunition came up. The ADM (Mat) folks were all of the firm opinion that stockpiling ammunition was a huge waste of money and resources, that could be better used elsewhere in the Department.

When the CAF is faced with that attitude within DND, what hope do we have convincing the rest of the Government of Canada that ammunition is the lifeblood of a military?

 

[dapaterson]

As an addendum: I once acted as a tour guide for very senior public service ADM (Mat) staff during a live fire range. The subject of ammunition came up. The ADM (Mat) folks were all of the firm opinion that stockpiling ammunition was a huge waste of money and resources, that could be better used elsewhere in the Department.

When the CAF is faced with that attitude within DND, what hope do we have convincing the rest of the Government of Canada that ammunition is the lifeblood of a military?

I have also seen the senior 2* in Defence opine that projects shouldn't pay for ammo, and it should be paid for "somewhere else". Where that "somewhere else" was they never specified.

Fortunately, the senior 3* in Defence was also in the room, and in no uncertain terms corrected their subordinate - "We got to where we are by thinking like that. If we don't change our methods, we'll never change our outcomes."

 

[YZT580]

As an addendum: I once acted as a tour guide for very senior public service ADM (Mat) staff during a live fire range. The subject of ammunition came up. The ADM (Mat) folks were all of the firm opinion that stockpiling ammunition was a huge waste of money and resources, that could be better used elsewhere in the Department.

When the CAF is faced with that attitude within DND, what hope do we have convincing the rest of the Government of Canada that ammunition is the lifeblood of a military?

That is probably a major drawback in having public service people who have achieved their positions through competitions and have no loyalty to the DND itself in charge of or at least providing input into identifying requirements. For some, it is just a job.

 

[MilEME09]

As an addendum: I once acted as a tour guide for very senior public service ADM (Mat) staff during a live fire range. The subject of ammunition came up. The ADM (Mat) folks were all of the firm opinion that stockpiling ammunition was a huge waste of money and resources, that could be better used elsewhere in the Department.

When the CAF is faced with that attitude within DND, what hope do we have convincing the rest of the Government of Canada that ammunition is the lifeblood of a military?

Its the just in time delivery attitude. Except we are a military, not canadian tire. In the event of war we need a stockpile to sustain us while industry spools up. That fact senior leaders think we dont need to do that is an abject failure of the organization, and the leadership

 

[lenaitch]

Its the just in time delivery attitude.

Or the 'we're peackeepers' myth.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Or the 'we're peackeepers' myth.

Both are true in their own lanes.

But we need to get back into the business of stockpiling supplies again.

 

[MilEME09]

Both are true in their own lanes.

But we need to get back into the business of stockpiling supplies again.

Agreed, every major city should have a depot to support the regions units.

 

[Kirkhill]

Ridiculous.

Accurate fire by individuals out to 300m, and sections out to 600m, as well as the CQB stuff is and always has been the Infantry's bread and butter.

Unless, of course, your focus is on attracting online gaming addicts (the majority of teenaged males) into the military.

Colin Campbell's 93rd might disagree. Until Colin put his trust in the Minie bullet the British infantry fought at 25 yards. Always is a long, long time.

And all those Security troops that seem to be required for internal duties like guarding F35s, armouries and oil line pumping stations, are likely to be needing to practice rapidly engaging grannies with sticky bombs from the slung position.

 

[Harris]

If we believe the Brit prescription is right then the demand would be for competence with pistol and carbine at 40m and under.

50m ranges should be a lot more easily accomplished than 500m ranges.

https://drooid.social/post/736351/general-walker-warns-troops-fight-from-0-40-metres/full-breakdown

How does the Tillotson facility at Windsor operate in practice?

When I was with the Essex and Kent we would either go to Cedar Springs Range and Training Area (very infrequently) or the majority of the time to the US based Camp Grayling. Way better facilities and service in the US.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

As an addendum: I once acted as a tour guide for very senior public service ADM (Mat) staff during a live fire range. The subject of ammunition came up. The ADM (Mat) folks were all of the firm opinion that stockpiling ammunition was a huge waste of money and resources, that could be better used elsewhere in the Department.

When the CAF is faced with that attitude within DND, what hope do we have convincing the rest of the Government of Canada that ammunition is the lifeblood of a military?

I keep adding to my own thoughts, which is bad form, I suppose. Another thing that struck me was that the senior civil servants viewed ammunition as a depreciating asset, no different from a desk, computer terminal or a pickup truck. Most had been parachuted by PCO into DND from other Departments and had no Defence background. Another constant problem.