which suggests activating, or re-constituting would probably be more appropriate, a closed facility. But how far outside a major centre is considered reasonable? As well, I believe the focus was on creating a reserve system which would require aircraft technicians on site but crew could and would commute. In the southern Ontario region YHM and the Toronto pair of airports are the only ones that are really busy London has a fair bit of executive and freight traffic but doesn't match HM. That leaves YKF and YFD that are close to YYZ and offer decent employee opportunities. YYB has been disparaged before on these pages so we will leave it out. What about Carp? It is close to Ottawa, with a single surfaced runway and a gravel strip that could easily be re-constituted and close to miles and miles of forest and lakes for training without traffic interference.Wadena was tongue in cheek
CAF is competing for talent, part of that is offering postings where families can work and thrive. Increasingly, smaller communities are less attractive because spousal employment is limited - and even if there are opportunities, every posting means starting from the bottom of seniority lists (Wayne Eyre mentions that in his book).
The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
- Thread starter WingsofFury
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AvroArrow92
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Really there is very few airfields that would make sense for fast jet reactivation or new build. In my opinion you got North Bay, Winnipeg, Comox, and Greenwood that is it. Even then in terms of viablitly I would say North Bay, and that would still cost billions at least. New ramp space, secure hangers, ammo storage, fuel storage, more PMQ ext.. The military airspace still exist around North Bay, and it is remote enough that you won’t have a lot of complaints. While still being relatively close to major urban areas. You could maybe more readily create some civilian or military fields for fast jet activity but that is not the same thing. Canada would be better off adding another TFS to both Cold Lake and Bagotville before new fast jet MOB. If we want more presence for the RCAF, add a C130J sq in the A330MRTT MOB in YEG. Add a reserve helo sq somewhere in the BC lower mainland or Winnipeg or ideally both. Much better use of limited resources.
and then of course there is always Gimli. Its only an hour from WG and the runway surfaces are not in bad shape. Lots of room around for training and the lake for recreation. There are definitely worse places.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Fossil
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SAAB not Gripen brings on more than a Jet fighter.
If we were to buy FA-50s what other sensor packages do or can we get with the system? What future development can we have or assist with in future changes and or manufacturing?
From my understanding SAAB is looking for a partner in Canada not only to buy some equipment but also to be a partner in development of systems across the board.
Canada offers a diverse group of experienced techs and engineers who offer a superb background in not only sensor fusion across various industries and systems, but various industries across the board such as aerospace. I think SAAB fully understands this as well as South Korea. Who are both wanting partnerships with Canada across a wide stream of systems development.
My head is not buried in the sand to not think Canada has ties with all the major and minor Defense contractors in the US. The US literally has their hands in every corner of the world in one way or another. They control the defense market around the globe directly and or indirectly.
What I am seeing is many of the "smaller" companies and Countries who have successful defense programs are looking for a alternative to just working with the Big boys on the market.
Very few times has the big guys development the next big thing. many projects have born out of smaller companies who came up witht the idea/ process hoping to make it big and then one of the large defense agencies swoop them up and or dictate the direction things will go while being financed by the US Defence program.
I think times are changing many of the smaller companies are realizing Canada brings more to the table than originally thought. If we just bring that we are next door to the US and they watch directly what we are doing in Defense research and development then that may be enough for a few of the smaller guys trying get more sales to the US. Many systems are said to be not usable or impractical by the large defense companies in the US. When in fact they are and at the right time they will again swoop in and buy them up. Not before low balling the smaller companies.
It is called business, but not often in good taste or faith.
I think Trump brought forward many of the concerns that Countries and manufactures have had for years. They are not partners with the US, they are servants who provide supplies, tech and labor for the US Of A.
So now they are looking at alternatives, even though everyone will still be tied to the US for many more years to come.
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12, 16 or 30 aircraft ordered?
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Halifax Tar
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Screwing up a project is a time honoured Canadian traditionMan, we are gonna fuck this up, aren't we ?
Rainbow1910
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How much does Saab actually offer as a potential partner though? Their export track record for the Gripen is fairly dismal, a substantial amount of the equipment inside said aircraft is foreign sourced and their experience developing/operating unmanned/fighter aircraft isn't especially deep. GlobalEye makes sense, I fully understand that. Gripen does not and has not, just like how it doesn't for all of the potential customers who rejected it in favour of other aircraft.
From all accounts, it looks like Saab will have to partner up with the German-Spanish 6th Gen Program in order to avoid becoming entirely irrelevant in the coming years. Even in this program or any other 6th Gen equivalent they enter, they will be relegated to a junior partner. The Swedish Government hasn't even funded Saab's own internal 5th/6th Gen fighter development programs, it does not inspire confidence in me as a prospective partner.
People put Saab forward as this natural option for Canada to pick, but I personally don't see a lot of the appeal besides their desperation which pushes them to promise the world. If the cost of a future unmanned aircraft capability is ordering Gripen and setting up domestic production, I want to see what other competitors have to offer without those kinds of strings. Why are we so willing to run into the arms of a single foreign company instead of looking elsewhere OR looking inwards at the companies pitching these platforms at home? A good deal of the equipment within Gripen for example isn't something Saab can offer licensing or domestic production of anyway, because they import it themselves.
South Korea is a great example, they are setting up a largely domestic aviation industry that is increasingly not reliant on foreign imported components. They can actually promise workshare and deliver much more of it, as they have control of the IP and delivery of their own equipment. This is an emerging industry across the world, there is plenty of options for partners besides Saab and arguably with better track records.
is that better?Screwing up a project is a time honouredCanadianliberal radition
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No
It applies equally across all political - and - business parties/companies.
Halifax Tar
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Mmmmm.... yeahhhhh... I suppose...
But...
He'd like to talk to you about Cadillacs.
He'd like to talk to you about never buying the F35
Halifax Tar
Army.ca Legend
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Yes.
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I hear you, loud and clear.
I feel that if Mulroney was able to follow through on the nuc subs back in 1988 things would be different now. An entire new industry related to the maintaining and expanding that capability would have been established and all the thousands of jobs related to it. It would have been a fundamental shift in our approach to defence and our mentality.
Hindsight.......and rose coloured glasses.
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If you want to exclude things like Conservatives removing Chinooks and ADATS from service and buying 100 militarized 412 helicopters instead of UH-60s, amongst other reductions in capability, then I suppose you can sleep soundly believing it was only the LPC that has a poor capital project record.
Halifax Tar
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They also:
- Committed to the F-35
- Purchased Leopard 2 tanks
- Purchased G-Wagons
- Purchased M777 howitzers
- Purchased Chinook helicopters
- Purchased C-17s
- Purchased C-130Js
- Launched the National Shipbuilding Strategy
Oh, and they made a lot of announcements.
I understand we all have our own biases, and we all enjoy a bit of whataboutism from time to time. I just thought I'd join in the fun.
Halifax Tar
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Things we will never know...
That really is a great question. SAAB is trying to sell a package deal with future partnerships. SAAB is on the leading edge of various systems and programs. But they are not on the leading edge of funding and support. That will always go to the US.
Gripen is not the only part of the package. It is the sensor fusion/connection/usage of both aerial, ground and subsea systems together that makes this a package worth looking at.
The entire warfare suit from SAAB encompasses more than a simple Gen4 aircraft. The fact that they just installed their Early Warning system on a MQ9 last month
Considering the original partnership has already failed, the newish German Spanish partnership is not confirmed. I am not sure if Sweden would join that anyways on any level. There are talks of various groups partnering up to provide a 6th gen program. Who really knows till the infighting stops and they actually put things forward.
Exciting times to be part of new builds and investing money.
That would be 100% wrong. The Swedish Government has funded their own research into their program. looking at 2027-2030 for prototypes an such. No doubt SAAB has been working on this program for many years already.
As aside Airbus is possibly looking at partnering up with SAAB. But who really knows who will partner with who in the end Europe is a roll the dice and see who plays nice tomorrow for the next week.
SAAB provides some of the best electronic suits int he world.
I do not think there is any desperation. Sweden does not have the industrial capacity to build equipment like others do. Nor do they have the resources to do so.
In the past partnering with other European countries becomes a who is more in charge than the other.
I think SAAB is looking for a partner who is interested in making a move towards a broad range of R&D along with manufacturing. Canada can provide that secure partnership.
I would like to see a Canada, Sweden, South Korea partnership on not only a 6th Gen but on future tech across the board.
They rely on all the same big named companies to develop, operate, maintain, test and build their systems.
In fact South Korea Defense Industries has been thinking of further partnering with SAAB on other projects. Possibly seeing a 6th Gen fighter/ Wingman program spur off.
One of the known issues/ concerns is how intertwined every Western/ Asian Defense company is with US Defense companies.
There are very few equipment builds that are not done through partnerships in fact I doubt now adays no builds are done without some form of partnerships.
Even the French do not produce a French only platform anymore. All their major major companies are in partnership with US/ European/ Israli defense through subsidiaries.
You have to remember Sweden/ SAAB never originally built equipment for export. Everything they built was for home defense. It was others who recognized their equipment was some of the best in the world.
They did not get rich off their sales but it helped them to continue building enhancements and future developments.
On the 6th Gen front I think Sweden/ SAAb realize they cannot go it alone, but they are looking for other partners to push things along. Again Canada is a country that provides a lot of raw construction materials and then can provide skills to make things work.
Goes back to who wants to partner with us.
In my opinion It is to bad we went with the German Sub. I do not see much more than a sub maintenance contract coming from that deal.
With the South Korean deal I could see a much broader scope of work and sales coming from a deal with them.
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Reading the above with a bit more of an open eye. The statement made by ADM Beck was made just over 1yr ago. This could be out of date information. She also retired from the PS just over 11 months ago.
