Author Topic: Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death  (Read 88387 times)

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Offline ammocat

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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2013, 22:46:18 »
It will interesting to see what comes out of this as far as new training regulations, safety procedures, and the actual cause.  I wonder if lack of training or lack of proper training will be a contributing factor.  Years ago when I was still in the infantry we carried the practice mines regularly during training.  We never had all the accessories for them so you would unfold the legs, place it on the ground, and walk back to you position.  No aiming, no accounting for safety distances, missiles and debris being fired backwards, etc.  I am sure it was all in the lectures, but not practiced in the field.  Firing of live ones was a rare event.  Maybe regular use of the live item so troops are familiar with its characteristics would help.  Of course things might be different now.

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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2013, 23:31:55 »
I see reports of your demise has been greatly exaggerated AC
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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2013, 12:33:51 »
Sources close to me indicate that the C-19's where set up correctly but the successive concussion waves knocked over said C19 also they indicate that the LAV's where peppered from the ricochets too...

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Offline recceguy

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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2013, 12:36:48 »
BOI's aren't, as far as I know, generally released and it would take a Information Act request to secure the findings of the Board.

I'm sure the MSM has already applied..............from a number of sources.
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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2013, 15:22:27 »
Sources close to me indicate that the C-19's where set up correctly but the successive concussion waves knocked over said C19 also they indicate that the LAV's where peppered from the ricochets too...

Take it for what it's worth.......

Hopefully a report will be made where we can see the position of the C19's in relation to all the personel.
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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2013, 15:52:45 »
I realize this was operational however the setting for the range seemed relaxed ie not in any immediate danger.  Therefore reading the C19 pub it is clear many things fell to the wayside. 


Before connecting the blasting cap to the firing device, the safety bail must be in the "SAFE" position.
All personnel with in 250 metres of the front and sides of the weapon, and who are within 100 metres
of the rear of the weapon, must be under cover
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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2013, 17:34:08 »
I'm pretty sure all the water cooler talk and what should be and what is supposed to be, navel gazing et al was all covered at the trial.
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Offline 57Chevy

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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2013, 07:05:41 »
                                                 Shared with provisions of The Copyright Act

Jail or reprimand? Military judge to decide fate of convicted Calgary reservist
The Canadian Press By Bill Graveland, 20 Feb


CALGARY - A veteran Canadian Forces reservist convicted in a deadly training accident in Afghanistan is to learn his fate today when a military judge sentences him.
 
Cmdr. Peter Lamont could send Maj. Darryl Watts to jail, order him thrown out of the Canadian Forces in disgrace or demote him.
 
Watts was found guilty in December of unlawfully causing bodily harm and negligent performance of military duty in the training accident north of Kandahar City.
 
Cpl. Josh Baker, 24, died when an anti-personnel mine loaded with 700 steel balls peppered a platoon on a practice range three years ago. Four other soldiers hit by the blast were seriously injured.
 
The prosecution argued during the trial that Watts, who was the platoon commander, didn't enforce safety standards and abdicated his duty as leader when he handed over responsibility to Warrant Officer Paul Ravensdale.
 
The defence argued that Watts's blameworthiness is on the low end of the scale, since no one could have predicted what his lawyer called a "freak accident."
 
"He should only receive a very minimum sentence ... a reprimand," defence lawyer Balfour Der said after a sentencing hearing last month.
 
"Maj. Watts was found guilty, but it's as marginal as it can be," he added.
 
"I'm fairly confident that under these circumstances he's not going to get anything more than a reprimand."
 
But the prosecution said Watts should spend time behind bars.
 
"There's little evidence of remorse from Maj. Watts or that he has accepted responsibility for his actions," Maj. Dylan Kerr argued during the hearing.
 
Kerr suggested a message must be sent about Watts's part in the accident. He has called for 18 months in jail as well as outright dismissal or a demotion of two ranks to lieutenant.
 
The court martial heard that the range was divided into four training sections that day. The first two tests of the anti-personnel mine went off without a hitch. But when the second firing occurred, the ball bearings fired backwards, hitting Baker and the others.
 
Videos show several soldiers, including Watts, standing around watching the test. They are not inside armoured vehicles or standing behind them for cover as set out in safety regulations.
 
Der said a harsh sentence could destroy his client's life. Watts works as a senior firefighter with the Calgary Fire Department as his regular day-to-day job.
 
"Jail would likely end his career as a firefighter. It would end his career as a military officer."
 
Watts's commanding officer, Maj. Christopher Lunney, pleaded guilty in September to negligent performance of duty, was demoted to captain and given a severe reprimand.
 
Ravensdale, who has since retired, was convicted last week of unlawfully causing bodily harm, two counts of breach of duty and one count of negligent performance of military duty. He has yet to be sentenced.

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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2013, 15:51:20 »
shared from CBC.ca

Quote
A Calgary reservist has been sentenced to a reduction in rank and a severe reprimand for his role in a soldier's death during a live-fire training exercise in Afghanistan.
 
Maj. Darryl Watts was found guilty last year of unlawfully causing bodily harm and negligent performance of duty.
 
His rank was reduced to lieutenant as part of his sentence today at the Calgary court martial.
 
Watts, who is a full-time firefighter in Calgary, was the platoon commander when an explosive device killed 24-year-old Cpl. Josh Baker at a training range just north of Kandahar city in February 2010.
 
Four other soldiers were also wounded when Claymore explosives (C19s) packed with 700 steel balls hit a Canadian Forces platoon.
 
The prosecution was seeking a jail term of 18 months and dismissal from the forces, or demotion of two ranks.
 
The sentencing judge — a senior ranking military officer — cited Watts's promising career with the military and now with the Calgary Fire Department as reasons for not sending him to jail.
 
"He can continue to be a highly effective officer," said Cmdr. Peter Lamont.
 
Lamont called Watts' demotion rehabilitative, saying where rank can be lost it can also be regained.
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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2013, 16:19:05 »
So what does a severe reprimand mean for an Officer?
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #60 on: February 20, 2013, 17:40:32 »
So what does a severe reprimand mean for an Officer?

In theory he should not progress beyond captain rank.
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Watts, Prosecution Appeal
« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2013, 06:39:55 »
Quote
Prosecutors are seeking a harsher sentence for a veteran Canadian Forces reservist convicted in a deadly Afghanistan training accident.

Darryl Watts was found guilty in December of unlawfully causing bodily harm and negligent performance of military duty, but not guilty of manslaughter. He was demoted two ranks to lieutenant from major and given a severe reprimand.

Watts filed an appeal of both his sentence and conviction last month.

But the director of military prosecutions has filed a cross-appeal in the case. The prosecution had requested jail time for Watts during sentencing arguments as well as his dismissal with disgrace from the Canadian Forces.

"Yes, the Crown will be asking the Court Martial Appeal Court to substitute a greater punishment in lieu of the sentence imposed by the court martial," prosecutor Maj. Tony Tamburro confirmed in an email to The Canadian Press ....
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Offline Schindler's Lift

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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #63 on: April 04, 2014, 20:26:44 »
It seems Lt Watts is back in court now on his appeal.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Lawyer+tells+court+martial+Calgary+soldier+Darryl+Watts+conviction+totally+unreasonable/9699864/story.html

As is his right but from what I know of the file I think he got off light as it was.  I also find it telling that the lower ranks involved accepted their part in the matter and their punishment but the officer in charge is the one saying he was hard done by.  He failed at leadership at the time and continues to fail in leadership now IMHO.

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Offline Technoviking

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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #65 on: April 04, 2014, 21:29:05 »
I. Hate. Lawyers. I've been overall  responsible for the safety of ranges more complex. So have many in here...
So, there I was....

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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #66 on: April 04, 2014, 23:34:51 »
The prosecutor is a lawyer too.

Offline MJP

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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #67 on: April 05, 2014, 01:14:03 »
Lt. Watts seems to be using the same defense as that Col that got off on an ND by saying he didn't get any training.  I would say I hope it backfires on him but after the Col was found not guilty I can't say I would be surprised if they did the same here.
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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #68 on: April 05, 2014, 06:34:12 »
The prosecutor is a lawyer too.
Also a scumbag by association. They are both involved in sophistry, which has bugger all to do with the truth or justice.
So, there I was....

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #69 on: April 05, 2014, 06:39:24 »
It looks like they are saying  the claymore was placed  in the ground backwards.  I wonder if they had ARSOs.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 09:05:31 by ObedientiaZelum »
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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2014, 07:51:05 »
Also a scumbag by association. They are both involved in sophistry, which has bugger all to do with the truth or justice.

And that is where people who don't understand the process start to have problems with it.  Truth and justice are only two aspects of the process and its always been that way.  If that was all there was to it then people would not get defence lawyers and they would be forced to testify against themselves in court.  As much as I don't like it, a defence lawyer's job is to ensure his/her clients rights are protected as well and to raise reasonable doubt in regards to the prosecutions case.  They have no obligation to prove the innocence of the accused.  No accused has to prove that in any case.  The prosecution says something and the defence has the obligation to question it where questions can be raised.  After that, who ever has the better argument in keeping with the law often wins.  We all know OJ did it but under the law once the prosecution had him try on the gloves, and it was found those gloves no longer fit most likely because they shrunk when they dried, all bets were off and the prosecution lost it's case. 

Like it or not, and I most certainly don't, if his appeal is accepted it will be because it's felt there are compelling legal arguments for it to be accepted.  If there is, I don't have a problem with that although I'm sure its going to be a reason that's not going to sit well with me.  I DO have a problem with an officer (or SNCO for that matter) who is placed in leadership position and who denies responsibility when things go wrong. 

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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #71 on: April 05, 2014, 08:43:26 »
As you're very aware the C19 does say which side faces the enemy.

It looks like they are saying  the claymore was placed  in the ground backwards.  I wonder if they had also.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #72 on: April 05, 2014, 09:21:52 »
As you're very aware the C19 does say which side faces the enemy.

I sure am.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #73 on: April 05, 2014, 12:47:35 »
It looks like they are saying  the claymore was placed  in the ground backwards.  I wonder if they had ARSOs.

Asking one more time: what were the MCpls and Cpls doing at the time of the range.....


By the look if it videoing for uploading to YouTube later.
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Re: More Charges in Joshua Caleb Baker 2010 death
« Reply #74 on: April 05, 2014, 13:08:21 »
Asking one more time: what were the MCpls and Cpls doing at the time of the range.....


By the look if it videoing for uploading to YouTube later.

Yes, videoing, smoking, laughing, watching.....but most disturbing of all they were waiting for direction and correction from their (gasp!) leadership.  Should they have known better?  Sure they should have but this was also a training opportunity for them.   An opportunity for them to be trained properly on all aspects of the weapon system including correct safety procedures.